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elvis
03-26-2009, 12:13 PM
This appeared in yesterday's Manila Standard.* Per Anton Montinola, the ADMU-DLSU sched is to address the ticket supply and demand imbalance (which he said also addresses the scalping problem).

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Manila Standard Today
March 25, 2009

No more ticket problems

MORE tickets will be made available during Ateneo-La Salle games in the coming 72nd season of the University Athletic Association of the Philippines basketball tournament.

Incoming UAAP president Anton Montinola of Season 72 host Far Eastern University yesterday said they will set aside an exclusive playdate for the games of the senior and junior division so that more fans will be able to enjoy seeing their favorite teams in action.

“We will try to be as fan-friendly as possible. So, we are proposing that in Ateneo-La Salle games, there will be more tickets,” stated Montinola.

He explained that the move was meant to address the scarcity of tickets whenever the two schools played against each other in the past year.

The UAAP chief said this is also the league’s way of addressing another thorny issue concerning scalping, in which tickets were sold at higher price by enterprising individuals. Some have been caught by the police, but were later set free without any case filed against them.

“Every year, it’s the same story. Kulang ang tickets, and there’s scalping. You cannot repeal the law of supply and demand. What you to do is increase the supply. That’s the only way,” added Montinola.

The Ateneo Blue Eagles, who are going after a second straight title, are supposed to play the opening game of the season on July 11 with a lone game against* title contender FEU at the Araneta Coliseum. Peter Atencio

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oca
03-27-2009, 10:17 AM
This appeared in yesterday's Manila Standard. Per Anton Montinola, the ADMU-DLSU sched is to address the ticket supply and demand imbalance (which he said also addresses the scalping problem).

---------------------------------------------------

Manila Standard Today
March 25, 2009

No more ticket problems

MORE tickets will be made available during Ateneo-La Salle games in the coming 72nd season of the University Athletic Association of the Philippines basketball tournament.

Incoming UAAP president Anton Montinola of Season 72 host Far Eastern University yesterday said they will set aside an exclusive playdate for the games of the senior and junior division so that more fans will be able to enjoy seeing their favorite teams in action.

“We will try to be as fan-friendly as possible. So, we are proposing that in Ateneo-La Salle games, there will be more tickets,” stated Montinola.

He explained that the move was meant to address the scarcity of tickets whenever the two schools played against each other in the past year.

The UAAP chief said this is also the league’s way of addressing another thorny issue concerning scalping, in which tickets were sold at higher price by enterprising individuals. Some have been caught by the police, but were later set free without any case filed against them.

“Every year, it’s the same story. Kulang ang tickets, and there’s scalping. You cannot repeal the law of supply and demand. What you to do is increase the supply. That’s the only way,” added Montinola.

The Ateneo Blue Eagles, who are going after a second straight title, are supposed to play the opening game of the season on July 11 with a lone game against title contender FEU at the Araneta Coliseum. Peter Atencio

------------------



In a way, this "exclusive playday" will validate from whom the scalped tickets came from.

In a regular playday where 2 other schools see action aside from ADMU-DLSU, accusing fingers are pointed at the "2 other schools" as to where the scalpers got their tickets.

On Aug 8, walang pagbibintangan kundi itong dalawa. ;)

At itong bahaging ito ng report---

Incoming UAAP president Anton Montinola of Season 72 host Far Eastern University yesterday said they will set aside an exclusive playdate for the games of the senior and junior division so that more fans will be able to enjoy seeing their favorite teams in action.


Lacking in details, I hope it meant that the tentative schedule will be amended to have other schools have a playday similar to Aug 8.

Tuwirang double standard ang Aug 8 sa tentative schedule.

oca
03-27-2009, 10:28 AM
Hindi ko alam kung kabobohan o katangahan iyong inihayag sa balitang iyan.

The Aug 8 playday was intended to address the lack of supply in tickets and addressing scalping?

Sinong pinagloloko ni Montinola?

The venue has a finite number of seats. But each school by itself has a community of followers that far exceeds the finite number of seats at any venue. Pag hinati mo pa sa 50-50 ang tickets and allocate it to the 2 schools, does it actually address the problems of supply and that of scalping?

Mag-isip naman kayo ng mas magandang katwiran. Hindi naman bobo ang nagbabasa ng balita. Pero nalalaman ng bumabasa sino yung mga bobo at tanga.

blueatheart
03-27-2009, 06:14 PM
Sir Oca, I somehow agree with this kind of system. More Ateneans and Lasallians will be able to watch and less people will go to scalpers. If there are 4 schools in that date (including our schools), the allocation will be 40-40-10-10 or something to that effect. And as I observed in previous seasons, some students who are not Ateneans and Lasallians just buy tickets to sell to the scalpers. At least now, the 2 schools will have the whole allocation. Although it does not solve the problem of lack of tickets/seats, it somehow eases the pain (in their wallet ;D) of the students and alumni of both schools. :)

augustine
03-29-2009, 12:05 AM
At least the benefit arising from the higher ticket prices goes to the UAAP, which redounds to the benefit of all the schools. This is much better than the benefit going to scalpers.

The new arrangement is not perfect, but it's better than the existing one where the Ateneo-La Salle game is paired with - let's face it - a game that will be something like "Host School vs NU" or "Host School vs. Adamson". Host schools would benefit from the demand from scalpers, and be able to sell their allocation plus the NU allocation. Just compare recent schedules with the host schools for that year.

pablohoney
03-29-2009, 09:14 PM
May point si Sir Oca.
Kapag ganito ang sistema (DLSU-ADMU juniors and seniors game), ang "scalping" mejo limited sa 3 schools -- yung host, DLSU and ADMU. Kakurampot lang ata ang mapupunta sa mga natitiraing limang koponan.
Though I really cannot comprehend Montinola's logic. Will this stop scalping? I doubt it. ;D

And let's not forget the Ticketnet/Araneta can/will always find ways to sell more tickets in its own way.

Maganda rin na ibalik ang Juniors, to serve some sort of appetizer. :D

I remember not so long ago, even women's game was played on the same day as the juniors and the seniors.
Yun nga lang, 9AM usually. Then juniors around 11AM. Then seniors na kapag 1PM at 3PM.

oca
03-30-2009, 12:13 PM
Only by increasing the penalties on scalping, by enforcing the same law and seeing to it that this leads to prosecution that scalping will be addressed.

Of course the tickets sold at the gates can conveniently land on the scalpers hands. Nothing against ADMU and DLSU communities, pero maniwala kayo, people from your own communities will sell their tickets at a premium.

Pero may isang scenario akong nakikita at natitiyak kong tatawa kaming mga miron. This exclusive playday gives the impression that more tickets will be available, pero sa araw ng laro, pusta ako, more azul and more verde will complain that they can't find tickets.

This Aug 8 set up will not address the issues as pointed out by Montinola. Mabuti pang direkta niyang sinabi this makes better economic and commercial sense than having 2 other schools muddle the event. Tanggap naman ng madla na commercialized na ang UAAP.

Sa isang miron walang pintas yan, katotohanan lang. Pero yung kung ano-ano pa ang pinagsasabi, malulutong na mura lang ang sagot dyan.

GHRanger
03-30-2009, 12:25 PM
Only by increasing the penalties on scalping, by enforcing the same law and seeing to it that this leads to prosecution that scalping will be addressed.


Sir I agree with this one. Wala pa akong nakikita sa balita na na prosecute / huli lang - and whatever happens after that is everyone's guess.

pablohoney
03-30-2009, 01:06 PM
Of course the tickets sold at the gates can conveniently land on the scalpers hands. Nothing against ADMU and DLSU communities, pero maniwala kayo, people from your own communities will sell their tickets at a premium.

This is so true.
Stopping scalping is like asking for a miracle.

LION
03-30-2009, 01:08 PM
Is scalping really a crime? Is there a law prohibiting and penalizing scalping? Maybe this is the reason why no one has been prosecuted.

If I buy tickets and sell it again for a higher price, am I a scalper or just being a good trader? * *
*

razor
03-30-2009, 01:23 PM
^ QC ordinance daw meron. But how do they define scalping in that ordinance?

LION
03-30-2009, 02:12 PM
^An ordinance made to specifically to apply to Big Dome tickets? Kelan pa naging regulated ng gobyerno ang pagbili ng tickets ng Araneta?

Scalping should not be tolerated but this for me is a private concern only. Araneta management dapat ang mag resolve niyan at hindi ang gobyerno.

fujima04
03-30-2009, 02:38 PM
Mahirap man gawin pero kailangan aminin din natin na tayong mga consumers at mismong mga nagrereklamo ang isa sa mga dahilan kung bakit me scalping.

Sabi nga walang manloloko kung walang magpapaloko.

This also applies to scalpers, kung walang tatangkilik, walang scalpers.

And agree kay oca, kahit mismong sa mga communities natin ay may mga scalpers.

pablohoney
03-30-2009, 09:16 PM
There is an QC ordinance that prohibits scalping.
Hell, one is not even allowed to sell their own ticket(s) inside or in Araneta Center's immediate vicinity, kahit NOT for profit. ;D

If it's not for profit, it shouldn't be scalping. ;)

Guardian Angel
03-31-2009, 01:25 PM
^An ordinance made to specifically to apply to Big Dome tickets? Kelan pa naging regulated ng gobyerno ang pagbili ng tickets ng Araneta?*

Scalping should not be tolerated but this* for me is a private concern only. Araneta management dapat ang mag resolve niyan at hindi ang gobyerno.




I do not subscribe to your point of view.

#1, I am sure the ordinance applies to all venues in QC, not Araneta alone. So, no issue there.
2. The sale of tickets or any other commodity, even if a "private" affair, can be regulated by the government. Heck, all of our "private" affairs have government intervention somehow -- we pay VAT, doc stamps, etc. Even our marriages are controlled, to some extent, by government (i.e. license requirements, age requirements, etc. )
3. Using your argument, does that mean that fencing, too, cannot be made a crime? That's a private transaction between 2 individuals too. How about usury? Why does the law intervene in a private transaction between 2 individuals when interest rates are unconscionable or oppressive? Because the state can and should act to curb some practices. That applies to scalping as well.

Just my 2 cents worth.

LION
03-31-2009, 10:25 PM
^My point of view is not open for subscription. It's entirely private.* ;D*

Re your opinion no. 1,* *you are only sure that the ordinance applies to all venues in QC but you have not seen it yet.* That is pure speculation.

Re your opinion no. 2, not all private affairs are subject to government regulation. The state regulates only when public interest so requires or when the power of taxation is exercised, among others.

3. Re your opinion No. 3, the comparison is not proper. Fencing is a crime because the item being sold is stolen. The big dome ticket being traded is not stolen.* Usury Law? Buhay pa ba yan?* Matagal ng suspended yan binubuhay mo pa.* ;D

I am against scalping but should the government intervene? Is public interest at stake? If yes, then so be it.* But as of now, I don't think even 1% of our entire population is concerned about the scalping of Araneta tickets.*

Hindi naman gumagalaw ang mundo ng Pilipino paikot sa bawat laro ng Ateneo at La Salle.* The management of Araneta and the UAAP officials can minimize the incidence of scalping if they really want to. I don't want the taxes I pay to end up being used by the government running after scalpers everytime there is an Ateneo and La Salle game.

Guardian Angel
03-31-2009, 11:41 PM
LION:

Just a rejoinder:

1. Would you agree that your statement that the ordinance applying to "Araneta only" is only an opinion as well, as I am sure you have not read the ordinance yourself. IF the ordinance applies to Araneta alone (which is unlikely), any first year law student will tell you it's unconstitutional and unlawful and ought to be stricken down, and most likely would have been already if that were the case.

2. Correct. Regulation if the state deems it necessary to protect some public good or prevent public harm. Like to prevent scalping, usury, fencing or any other activity deemed to be dangerous or against public policy.

You seem to be a lawyer or at least have some law background. I'm sure you are aware, therefore, that public interest is not determined simply by the number of people affected. Especially since we are talking about an ordinance, there need not be an overwhelming number of OUR ENTIRE POPULATION affected. Because if that were the case, what percentage of our nationwide population do you think drives on EDSA? I'd say 1/4 at the most. Does this make all ordinances regarding EDSA traffic invalid? How about cockfighters? How many cockfights or cockfighting afficionados do we have? Does that make the RPC provision on cockfighting invalid as well? I can go on and on but will stop there for the meantime.

You make a distinction between fencing and scalping because the item sold is stolen. Stolen, but not by the fence but by some other person. And the thief is subject to another crime altogether. So the act of selling, per se, is independent of the theft. Yet the law punishes it. Same with scalping. Regardless of the origin of the ticket, or the transaction surrounding its acquisition, what is punished is the act of scalping.

Your argument regarding the usury law I find hard to understand. I have personally handled a case 3 or 4 years ago where a court nullified a contract because of usurious rates. If you want the details and are in the mood for some education, I can PM you the citation. But that's not the point. The point is, usury, like scalping, is a private transaction where the government CAN intervene if it deems the arrangement to be unfair or unjust.

You are right, the world does not revolve around Ateneo-La Salle games, even if it seems that the whole country stops dead in its tracks when the 2 schools meet. Perhaps there are Bedans or students/alumni of other schools who couldn't care less about the rivalry and are irritated when people around them do. You seem to be one of them. I wouldn't want to speculate on the reason for the irritation, but frankly, I can't understand why you should mind in the first place.

In any case, it cannot be denied that because of the immense interest in Ateneo-La Salle games, scalping, which is demand driven, has become a problem and there is nothing wrong with the government stepping in to try to eliminate the problem.

PS, It is not true that scalping happens only during Ateneo-La Salle games, I think some scalpers try their luck in San Beda games too, but since the demand is not nearly as high as Ateneo-La Salle games, the prices are much lower. Scalping is also very common for concerts.

LION
04-01-2009, 12:55 AM
Read again my post Guardian Angel. I merely asked if the ordinance applies to Araneta tickets only because I could not think of any other event in QC where scalping is prevalent. It was not an opinion per se. I have not read the ordinance and that is the reason why I asked.

I know it's unconstitutional if the ordinance is applicable to Araneta only. I don't need your reminder on that. But then again, there are many laws and ordinances that are unconstitutional but have not been stricken down - yet.

Re your new post no. 2, thanks for saying I'm correct. And I repeat, comparing scalping with fencing and usury is not proper. Oceans apart. Entirely different.

Yes I do have some legal background but I am not one who will use that here. I don't want to turn off my fellow gamefacers. If you may have noticed, I post like a layman, devoid of any legalese, and I don't even post in the Mag legal - egalantayo" thread here because I am already tired of my legal work. Gameface is my form of escape and I just want to enjoy this forum.

And here again I have to respond to your EDSA comparison. By the way, 1/4 of our entire population is very big. That translates to about 20 million Filipinos, more or less.

About cockfighting, which is a form of gambling, this is prohibited because of its pernicious effects. But scalping? What is so pernicious about 500 or more Ateneans or La Sallians who were not able to wach a UAAP game live because of scalping? Should the government even intervene for these people?

And even without the scalpers, there is simply not enought tickets to accommodate all these La Sallians and Ateneans who want to watch the game live at the venue. Ergo, the effect is still the same. With or without the scalpers, the venue will still be jampacked. There will not be enough tickets. Do you think that penalizing scalping will produce more tickets?

Who are ultimately affected then by these scalpers? Not every Atenean or La Sallian. Only those who are willing to pay the exorbitant price. Did you ever notice that if you don't patronize these scalpers, their prices ultimately go down? Kaya mataas yang presyo ng mga tinamaan ng lintek na mga scalpers dahil sa mga mayayaman na walang pakundangan kung bumili ng tickets sa scalpers. And I was told that some rich students even bid their tickets online and that bids went as high as P30,000.00.

Come to think of it again, a La Salle vs. Ateneo game is a social event. It's a private party dude. If you want to get invited, pay the price. Those who are left out can't go to the government and complain that they were not able to attend the party.

Now going back to fencing and usury.

You can't compare scalping and usury. I repeat, the ticket is not stolen and it is a legitimate commodity. A stolen property is not a legitimate property. You can argue legally and cite technicalities but bottomline is, they are not the same.

About usury, the fact that the law was suspended says a lot about the nature of that law. I am aware that while the usury law is not in effect, courts have nullified some contracted interest rates because they are unconscionable but the lender is no longer penalized. The courts simply apply the rules on equity, fairness and sometimes social justice. But hey, all is fair in a game betwen ADMU and DLSU.

And to correct you, I am not irritated by these La Salle - Ateneo games. In fact, I enjoy watching these games. Stop speculating dude. It's clouding your judgment.

Re scalping of San Beda game tickets, you are right. Prices are not that high. The reason is that we generally don't patronize scalpers. I can very much afford to buy 10 tickets from scalpers if I want to even if they are selling at P30k per ticket, but heck, an Ilocano like me would rather watch the game on tv. ;)

So Attorney, I was forced to discuss legalities here because of you. As I said, I am here to relax. :)

Guardian Angel
04-01-2009, 09:44 AM
So what's the threshhold? 1/4 is ok but 1% is not? Panero (assuming you are a lawyer), have you had a chance to brush up on your constitutional law where it is basic that public interest is not determined by sheer number of people affected?

You posed the question on how many percent of the ENTIRE POPULATION is affected by scalping and sarcastically said not even 1%. Incidentally, I don't know how you came up with that figure. But anyways, it is an even more basic principle in law, panero, that you do not judge the value of a ordinance by its NATIONWIDE value, precisely because it affects only LGUs, not the entire country. Ask any first year law student who has taken up statutory construction.

I think you misunderstand the purpose of prohibiting scalping. While it obviously aims to protect the buying public, it's more important purpose is to punish a person -- a vulture, if your will -- who takes advantage to unusually high demand of a commodity, for his personal benefit. In this regard it is not much different, nay, it is almost identical, to hoarding. Surely, we cannot argue that hoarding should not be punishable by law.

Finally, I admire you for having the means to pay P300,000 for tickets, and admire you even more for announcing it in this forum. While I do not know you personally, at least I am now aware that you are a person of means. Congratulations.

LION
04-01-2009, 01:22 PM
Hahahaha. Read my posts and digest them as a whole dude. You are imputing things because of your piecemeal reading of my posts. And you are again assuming too much.

You talk as if my basis is solely numbers. As i have said, public interest is not at stake. It's just some greens and blues who can't enter the venue that are affected. And even if there are no scalpers, a lot of them will still be left out because the crowd capacity of the venue remains constant.

And even if we go by numbers even by lgu standards, the number will still not reach 1%. And that 1% figure was arrived at in the same manner you arrived at your 1/4 figure. And even aspiring law students know the fallacy of comparing scalping with fencing and usury.

Now here you again comparing scalping with hoarding. Hoarding is done by legitimate dealers. Scalpers are not. Hoarding usually is done with respect to basic commodities like oil, rice, etc., that is why government must intervene. Public interest is at stake. Now, if you insist that a uaap ticket is a basic commodity, then go ahead and complain to the government.

To illustrate how absurd your example is, if Ateneo hoards the best players coming from hs, the other uaap schools can't even complain to the uaap board that Ateneo is hoarding the best recruits.

Re the p300k tickets, don't be a hypocrite. You are an Atenean lawyer and you can't afford that? Anyway, if you have a tv, just tune in to studio 23. That way, you don't have to worry about the price of a ticket from a scalper.

danny
04-01-2009, 02:45 PM
Unless you repeal the Law of Supply and Demand you have no choice but to pay the price. Simple microeconomics.* The quantity supplied is not enough to satisfy the quantity demanded.

Now since San Beda was factored into the equation, let me copy and paste what I said in one of the NCAA thread.




Student Population*

San Beda = 4,600
Letran* * *= 4,900
Ateneo* * = 11,465 (7,553 undergrad)
La Sale* * = 13,628 (11,071 undergrd)

*from Wiki


You don't simply compare apples and oranges. Be an alchemist first then* you compare lemons with lemons.

The combined population of San Beda and Letran is just 9,500 while that of Ateneo and La Salle is 25,093. If you want to compare the attendance in basketball games to make it on equal footing, divide the total spectators with the total school population for your index.

12,000/9,500 = 1.26

For an Ateneo-La Salle game to be comparable to the attendance of the San Beda-Letran game on an adjsuted basis, they need to have a total attendance* of 31,617 (25,093 x 1.26). Last year, the San Beda-Letran games peaked at least 22,000 for an index of* 2.32. For the other league to equal that on an adjusted basis, they need to peak at around 51,040.

Now try using this index with the other huge UAAP schools.* *Come to think of it, that game in the NCAA was even done on a weekday. On a weekday, ManCom PE instructors! Did you hear me!?

It's just simple ratio and proportion. We do that everyday. But the NCAA Mancom? Clueless probably. May pa PR pang 14,000 e 12,000 lang naman.* Isinama pa yung kabilang liga pero hindi naisip na mas malaki ang populasyon sa kabila.



What's the seating capacity of Areneta?* 15,000 seats? That's your quantity supplied. The population of Ateneo-La Salle?* 25,093? That' your quantity demanded.

There you go. If you cannot pay the price, then don't join the party.

Kulang lang talaga ang ticket sa populasyon pa lang ng dalawang paaralan na iyan.* Gusto lang marahil kumita ng ibang mahihirap nating kababayang scalper. Donasyon na lang ba sa naghihikahos. Kayo naman. Christian Charity ba...yung mga hoarders naman, malamang mga ka-iskwela niyo din yan. Kayo kayo din lang yan. ;D

danny
04-01-2009, 02:53 PM
You talk as if my basis is solely numbers. As i have said, public interest is not at stake. It's just some greens and blues who can't enter the venue that are affected. And even if there are no scalpers, a lot of them will still be left out because the crowd capacity of the venue remains constant.




Yup. That's very straightforward. The Quantity Supplied is way less than the Quantity Demanded.

I can actually calculate the price elasticity of demand if I were given the data. But that's off-topic na pare. :D

blue scorpion
04-01-2009, 03:06 PM
Unless you repeal the Law of Supply and Demand you have no choice but to pay the price. Simple microeconomics. The quantity supplied is not enough to satisfy the quantity demanded.

Now since San Beda was factored into the equation, let me copy and paste what I said in one of the NCAA thread.




Student Population*

San Beda = 4,600
Letran = 4,900
Ateneo = 11,465 (7,553 undergrad)
La Sale = 13,628 (11,071 undergrd)

*from Wiki


You don't simply compare apples and oranges. Be an alchemist first then you compare lemons with lemons.

The combined population of San Beda and Letran is just 9,500 while that of Ateneo and La Salle is 25,093. If you want to compare the attendance in basketball games to make it on equal footing, divide the total spectators with the total school population for your index.

12,000/9,500 = 1.26

For an Ateneo-La Salle game to be comparable to the attendance of the San Beda-Letran game on an adjsuted basis, they need to have a total attendance of 31,617 (25,093 x 1.26). Last year, the San Beda-Letran games peaked at least 22,000 for an index of 2.32. For the other league to equal that on an adjusted basis, they need to peak at around 51,040.

Now try using this index with the other huge UAAP schools. Come to think of it, that game in the NCAA was even done on a weekday. On a weekday, ManCom PE instructors! Did you hear me!?

It's just simple ratio and proportion. We do that everyday. But the NCAA Mancom? Clueless probably. May pa PR pang 14,000 e 12,000 lang naman. Isinama pa yung kabilang liga pero hindi naisip na mas malaki ang populasyon sa kabila.



What's the seating capacity of Areneta? 15,000 seats? That's your quantity supplied. The population of Ateneo-La Salle? 25,093? That' your quantity demanded.

There you go. If you cannot pay the price, then don't join the party.

Kulang lang talaga ang ticket sa populasyon pa lang ng dalawang paaralan iyan. Price control? Ano ito? Pasismo o Komunismo? Akala ko ba mga kapitalista kayo?


;);D




Pare. Kulang pa ang demand diyan. Sama mo pa ang alumni, propesor at ibang mga fans na hindi kinabibilangan sa mga dalawang nasabing eskwelahan.

Of course, ang assumption dito, lahat ng mga estyudante, alumni propesor ng dalawang paaralan ang gustong manood ng laro. Ngunit, sa aking karanasan sa Ateneo, hindi iyan ang kaso. May mga taong wala pakealam sa laro. Kaya, kokonte ang labanan para sa ticket. Ngunit ang mga ito ay maliit na populasyon lamang sa Ateneo.

Sa tinging ko mas kuha ng "price-discrimination" ang paglarawan nang nangyayari pag Ateneo-La Salle. Dahil magkakaiba ang mga "preferences" ng mga iba't-ibang tao o grupo ng mga mamimili, iniiba ng mga nagbebenta ang presyo ng kanilang mga produkto para sa mga iba't-ibang grupo. Ito ay para makarami ang kanilang mga tubo. Sa Ateneo at La salle o sa UAAP, kitang-kita ang price discriminasyon sa pagbenta ng mga ticket sa ibat-ibang presyo. May 30, 75, 150 at 200 (yata) na presyo. Kung may mga taong gusto lang makanood ng laro at ok lang sa kanya ang maging malayo sa court, doon na lang siya sa may P30 na ticket. Kung may mga taong gusto talagang maging malapit sa aksyon, eh di doon siya sa may Patron (hindi ko na alam kung magkano patron ngayon).Ngayon, pag- Ateneo vs La Salle, may mga grupong gustong-gusto talaga manood ng laban at gagawin niyang lahat para lang manood. Gagastos siya ng kahit anong halaga para lang makapasok sa Araneta sa araw na iyon. Siyempre, may mga taong magaling sa negosyo, ibebenta nila ang kanilang mga ticket sa mga taong iyan sa masmahal na halaga. Doon galing ang scalping.

blue scorpion
04-01-2009, 03:07 PM
You talk as if my basis is solely numbers. As i have said, public interest is not at stake. It's just some greens and blues who can't enter the venue that are affected. And even if there are no scalpers, a lot of them will still be left out because the crowd capacity of the venue remains constant.




Yup. That's very straightforward. The Quantity Supplied is way less than the Quantity Demanded.

I can actually calculate the price elasticity of demand if I were given the data. But that's off-topic na pare. :D



price elasticity of demand? let us just put it this way, parang gasolina ang ticket ng Ateneo- La Salle. Hindi umiiba ang demand kahit itaas ang presyo ng ticket.

franz_inwurdz
04-01-2009, 03:15 PM
price elasticity of demand? let us just put it this way, parang gasolina ang ticket ng Ateneo- La Salle. Hindi umiiba ang demand kahit itaas ang presyo ng ticket.


Mali ata ang statement mo na "hindi umiiba ang demand kahit itaas ang presyo". Ang gasolina bumaba na ang presyo dahil sa pag bagsak ng demand.

Isa pang mali, ang Ateneo-La Salle game ticket prices ay may tipping point kung saan bababa din ang demand sa taas ng presyo ng ticket.* ;)

danny
04-01-2009, 03:17 PM
Maari din yan.

Pero , Price Discrimination dahil na din sa pag-urong ng Demand Curve bunga ng mas malaking Populasyon at Income ng grupo. Ika nga hindi lang Quantity Demanded.

Isipin mo na lang, mas matinding *galaw ng presyo diyan dahil ang Supply curve hindi umuurong habang mismng Demand Curve ayon papuntang langit. :D

Ganun pa man, wala kang magagawa sa mga scalpers. Para naman tayong hindi marunong magnegosyo. Ano tayo? Sanggol?

danny
04-01-2009, 03:20 PM
You talk as if my basis is solely numbers. As i have said, public interest is not at stake. It's just some greens and blues who can't enter the venue that are affected. And even if there are no scalpers, a lot of them will still be left out because the crowd capacity of the venue remains constant.




Yup. That's very straightforward.* The Quantity Supplied is way less than the Quantity Demanded.

I can actually calculate the price elasticity of demand if I were given the data. But that's off-topic na pare.* :D



price elasticity of demand? let us just put it this way, parang gasolina ang ticket ng Ateneo- La Salle. Hindi umiiba ang demand kahit itaas ang presyo ng ticket.


Mali ka diyan. Dahil hindi pa naabot ang* dulo ng presyong gustong ibayad ng mga gustong manood. "Tipping Point" ika nga ng kasama kong Bedista.

Kung ganito naman pala, wala kayong problema sa presyo. Ituloy ang scalping. E di walang problema.* ;D

Balik sa UAAP schedule.

Guardian Angel
04-01-2009, 04:24 PM
Hahahaha. Read my posts and digest them as a whole dude. You are imputing things because of your piecemeal reading of my posts. And you are again assuming too much.

You talk as if my basis is solely numbers. As i have said, public interest is not at stake. It's just some greens and blues who can't enter the venue that are affected. And even if there are no scalpers, a lot of them will still be left out because the crowd capacity of the venue remains constant.

And even if we go by numbers even by lgu standards, the number will still not reach 1%. And that 1% figure was arrived at in the same manner you arrived at your 1/4 figure. And even aspiring law students know the fallacy of comparing scalping with fencing and usury.

Now here you again comparing scalping with hoarding. Hoarding is done by legitimate dealers. Scalpers are not. Hoarding usually is done with respect to basic commodities like oil, rice, etc., that is why government must intervene. Public interest is at stake. Now, if you insist that a uaap ticket is a basic commodity, then go ahead and complain to the government.

To illustrate how absurd your example is, if Ateneo hoards the best players coming from hs, the other uaap schools can't even complain to the uaap board that Ateneo is hoarding the best recruits.

Re the p300k tickets, don't be a hypocrite. You are an Atenean lawyer and you can't afford that? Anyway, if you have a tv, just tune in to studio 23. That way, you don't have to worry about the price of a ticket from a scalper.





I have still yet to hear an explanation why you want the interest of the ENTIRE NATION factored into a LOCAL ORDINANCE.* By skirting around this issue, you are forcing me to make the following assumptions --one* is that you are not aware of this basic legal tenet (which would be grossly embarrassing for San Beda, assuming that's where you studied law), or you are, but forgot about it, and are now embarrassed to admit it (which makes the embarrassment all yours).* Do tell which one it is.

As for hoarding, you again split hairs.* Of course they are not identical.* But they follow the same principle.* It involves a private transaction where one party, in possession of an item which is in demand, manipulates the price.* One can argue too that hoarding products is simply is a function of demand and supply, yet the law steps in.*

And it's not solely because the commodity is "basic".* Why are there antitrust laws, for instance? How about prohibitions against stock market manipulation.* Purely private, commercial transactions.* The products are not BASIC or ESSENTIAL.* Yet the law steps in to prohibit them.* Moreover, these transactions would not qualify under your "public interest" definition as well, because in a nation of almost 90million people, I am sure only a handful of people would have an understanding, interest or have dealings in the stock market. Do we complain about that too?* Strike down the entire RSA? Because only the elite would benefit from such protection.*

Finally, I refuse to be drawn into arguing about my own finances, because I feel that is inappropriate, irrelevant and would give an impression of insecurity .* But that's just me.* Feel free to continue* discussing your own wealth, if you feel the need to do so.* *

salsa caballero
04-01-2009, 05:18 PM
Mga Pareng Guardian Angel at Lion,

Peace nalang muna tayo. Hindi naman kailangan maging personal since no one is bullsh!tt!ng anybody or assuming false identities. Right Mr.-I'm-Sick-and-almost-dying-so-I'm-too-weak-to-show-my-sorry-ass-to-you???

I'm sure many of us posters have our share of arguing in order to make a living. So to the extent possible, let's keep our discussions here on Gameface intelligent and on the level without resorting to ad hominems. Mr. Angel, I've met Mr. Lion and he is actually pretty cool when you get to know him. He's a fun guy to share beers with, and if it's all the same to you, I'd like to buy both of you beers soon so we can all chat and keep this conversation light and intellectually stimulating. I actually owe Mr. Lion beer for payback. Just say when. Is that ok with you Mr. Lion?

Btw, Mr. Angel, did you go to Zobel for high school? You sound like someone I know who did, before eventually ending up at Ateneo for law school.

Cheers guys.

blue scorpion
04-01-2009, 05:46 PM
price elasticity of demand? let us just put it this way, parang gasolina ang ticket ng Ateneo- La Salle. Hindi umiiba ang demand kahit itaas ang presyo ng ticket.


Mali ata ang statement mo na "hindi umiiba ang demand kahit itaas ang presyo". Ang gasolina bumaba na ang presyo dahil sa pag bagsak ng demand.



Actually, bumaba ang presyo ng gasolina dahil sa global financial crisis and not really sa bagsak ng demand. Remember, usually, bumaba ang prices of goods or inflation pag may crisis as usually walang pera ang mga tao kaya hindi bumibili.

Gasoline is actually one of the best examples of price inelasticity. One of the conditions for a good to be considered inelastic in price is that it is a necessity and if there are no known substitutes. We all know that gasoline is a necessity. Hindi tayo mapupunta sa pinaroroonan natin kung walang gasolina. Hindi tatakbo ang kotse kung walang gasolina. Plus, are there known substitutes? Meron naman like an electric car but very expensive compared to keeping a gasoline powered car. Or, you can try walking or riding a bike or taking the MRT as substitutes to keeping a gasoline powered car. But, riding a bike or walking might not be the best option kung malayo ang lugar, and the MRT does not reach all the places. So some people still use their cars. Therefore, hindi masyadong nag-iiba ang dami ng bumibili ng gasolina kahit iiba ang presyo ng gasolina. Pwede magalit ang mamimili. Pwede magreklamo. Pwede magwelga ang mga transport groups. Pero, wala din silang magagawa tuwing tataas ang presyo ng gasolina dahil sa dulo ng lahat, bibili din sila ng gasolina dahil kailangan.

Iyung tipping point, tama ka doon. Kung inelastic ang demand (meaning less than 1 ang elasticity) pag tinaas mo ang pesyo, tataas din ang elasticity ng produkto. Tataas ang tubo mo. Kung elastic ang demand (meaning more than 1 ang elasticity) pag binaba mo ang presyo, bababa ang elasticity ng produkto. Tataas ang tubo ng nagbebenta. Kung maging 1 ang elasticity, iyan ang elasticity kung saan makukuha ng nagbebenta ang pinakamataas na tubo makukuha niya.

Tama ang analohiya binigay ko sa pagkumpara sa Ateneo-La Salle ticket. Parang siyang gasolina. Hindi masyadong umiiba ang demand sa ticket kahit itaas pa ang presyo nito. Siyempre, may mga taong hindi na bibili ng ticket pag-tumaas ang presyo. Ngunit, sobrang kaunti ito kumpara sa mga taong bibili ng ticket kahit lumaki pa ang presyo. Sa katotohanan, noong 2008 finals, kahit tumaas pa ang presyo ng ticket, napuno pa rin ang Araneta. Ang 25 pesos na gen ad, naging 30. Ang 50 pesos na Upper B, naging 75. Ang upper A na 100 pesos naging 150 yata (yata dahil nakalimutan ko na ang presyo dahil hindi naman ako umupo doon. Sa Upper B lang ako). Parang gasolina diba.

Sir danny re: scalpers. Kaya may scalpers, dahil may mga taong bibilili at bibili ng ticket sa kanila. Ok lang na magbayad sila ng malaking halaga para lang panoorin manalo ang kanilang koponan. Kaso, bawal magscalp ng ticket. Batas iyon at kailangang sundin.

Grabe, naging topic sa Economics ang thread na ito. Balik na tayo sa UAAP schedule.

Guardian Angel
04-01-2009, 06:32 PM
Salsa, all's cool. Thanks for your words of sobriety.

I'm just sharing my feelings on the issue of scalping and how I feel it is correctly subject of legal penalty. If anything, I think the government action has been on this matter has been lacking.

So I am of the exact opposite position of LION's, and was merely speaking my mind.

But like I said, all's cool.

Kid Cubao
04-01-2009, 07:22 PM
price elasticity of demand? let us just put it this way, parang gasolina ang ticket ng Ateneo- La Salle. Hindi umiiba ang demand kahit itaas ang presyo ng ticket.


Mali ata ang statement mo na "hindi umiiba ang demand kahit itaas ang presyo". Ang gasolina bumaba na ang presyo dahil sa pag bagsak ng demand.



Actually, bumaba ang presyo ng gasolina dahil sa global financial crisis and not really sa bagsak ng demand. Remember, usually, bumaba ang prices of goods or inflation pag may crisis as usually walang pera ang mga tao kaya hindi bumibili.

Gasoline is actually one of the best examples of price inelasticity. One of the conditions for a good to be considered inelastic in price is that it is a necessity and if there are no known substitutes. We all know that gasoline is a necessity. Hindi tayo mapupunta sa pinaroroonan natin kung walang gasolina. Hindi tatakbo ang kotse kung walang gasolina. Plus, are there known substitutes? Meron naman like an electric car but very expensive compared to keeping a gasoline powered car. Or, you can try walking or riding a bike or taking the MRT as substitutes to keeping a gasoline powered car. But, riding a bike or walking might not be the best option kung malayo ang lugar, and the MRT does not reach all the places. So some people still use their cars. Therefore, hindi masyadong nag-iiba ang dami ng bumibili ng gasolina kahit iiba ang presyo ng gasolina. Pwede magalit ang mamimili. Pwede magreklamo. Pwede magwelga ang mga transport groups. Pero, wala din silang magagawa tuwing tataas ang presyo ng gasolina dahil sa dulo ng lahat, bibili din sila ng gasolina dahil kailangan.

Iyung tipping point, tama ka doon. Kung inelastic ang demand (meaning less than 1 ang elasticity) pag tinaas mo ang pesyo, tataas din ang elasticity ng produkto. Tataas ang tubo mo. Kung elastic ang demand (meaning more than 1 ang elasticity) pag binaba mo ang presyo, bababa ang elasticity ng produkto. Tataas ang tubo ng nagbebenta. Kung maging 1 ang elasticity, iyan ang elasticity kung saan makukuha ng nagbebenta ang pinakamataas na tubo makukuha niya.

Tama ang analohiya binigay ko sa pagkumpara sa Ateneo-La Salle ticket. Parang siyang gasolina. Hindi masyadong umiiba ang demand sa ticket kahit itaas pa ang presyo nito. Siyempre, may mga taong hindi na bibili ng ticket pag-tumaas ang presyo. Ngunit, sobrang kaunti ito kumpara sa mga taong bibili ng ticket kahit lumaki pa ang presyo. Sa katotohanan, noong 2008 finals, kahit tumaas pa ang presyo ng ticket, napuno pa rin ang Araneta. Ang 25 pesos na gen ad, naging 30. Ang 50 pesos na Upper B, naging 75. Ang upper A na 100 pesos naging 150 yata (yata dahil nakalimutan ko na ang presyo dahil hindi naman ako umupo doon. Sa Upper B lang ako). Parang gasolina diba.

Sir danny re: scalpers. Kaya may scalpers, dahil may mga taong bibilili at bibili ng ticket sa kanila. Ok lang na magbayad sila ng malaking halaga para lang panoorin manalo ang kanilang koponan. Kaso, bawal magscalp ng ticket. Batas iyon at kailangang sundin.

Grabe, naging topic sa Economics ang thread na ito. Balik na tayo sa UAAP schedule.

never thought i'd encounter a lecture on price elasticity here in the forums ;D parang naalala ko na naman ang UPSE days ko with dr emmanuel de dios explaining economic concepts with the use of his all-time favorite example--the price of lechon manok. basta para sa akin, kakaiba ang gasolina. bakit? dahil kapag tao ang nagmamahal, marami ang natutuwa. pero pag gasolina ang nagmamahal, marami ang nagagalit.

hinay-hinay lang mga kaibigan. let's not get too personal.

LION
04-01-2009, 10:15 PM
Hahahaha. Read my posts and digest them as a whole dude. You are imputing things because of your piecemeal reading of my posts. And you are again assuming too much.

You talk as if my basis is solely numbers. As i have said, public interest is not at stake. It's just some greens and blues who can't enter the venue that are affected. And even if there are no scalpers, a lot of them will still be left out because the crowd capacity of the venue remains constant.

And even if we go by numbers even by lgu standards, the number will still not reach 1%. And that 1% figure was arrived at in the same manner you arrived at your 1/4 figure. And even aspiring law students know the fallacy of comparing scalping with fencing and usury.

Now here you again comparing scalping with hoarding. Hoarding is done by legitimate dealers. Scalpers are not. Hoarding usually is done with respect to basic commodities like oil, rice, etc., that is why government must intervene. Public interest is at stake. Now, if you insist that a uaap ticket is a basic commodity, then go ahead and complain to the government.

To illustrate how absurd your example is, if Ateneo hoards the best players coming from hs, the other uaap schools can't even complain to the uaap board that Ateneo is hoarding the best recruits.

Re the p300k tickets, don't be a hypocrite. You are an Atenean lawyer and you can't afford that? Anyway, if you have a tv, just tune in to studio 23. That way, you don't have to worry about the price of a ticket from a scalper.





I have still yet to hear an explanation why you want the interest of the ENTIRE NATION factored into a LOCAL ORDINANCE.* By skirting around this issue, you are forcing me to make the following assumptions --one* is that you are not aware of this basic legal tenet (which would be grossly embarrassing for San Beda, assuming that's where you studied law), or you are, but forgot about it, and are now embarrassed to admit it (which makes the embarrassment all yours).* Do tell which one it is.

As for hoarding, you again split hairs.* Of course they are not identical.* But they follow the same principle.* It involves a private transaction where one party, in possession of an item which is in demand, manipulates the price.* One can argue too that hoarding products is simply is a function of demand and supply, yet the law steps in.*

And it's not solely because the commodity is "basic".* Why are there antitrust laws, for instance? How about prohibitions against stock market manipulation.* Purely private, commercial transactions.* The products are not BASIC or ESSENTIAL.* Yet the law steps in to prohibit them.* Moreover, these transactions would not qualify under your "public interest" definition as well, because in a nation of almost 90million people, I am sure only a handful of people would have an understanding, interest or have dealings in the stock market. Do we complain about that too?* Strike down the entire RSA? Because only the elite would benefit from such protection.*

Finally, I refuse to be drawn into arguing about my own finances, because I feel that is inappropriate, irrelevant and would give an impression of insecurity .* But that's just me.* Feel free to continue* discussing your own wealth, if you feel the need to do so.* *



This retort of yours is actually empty but well masked because of its verbosity. *It appears you are still arguing but really, it's nothing. In fact, all the examples and comparisons you made were all shot down even before they could really take off. *You are the embarrassment here, not me. *In fact, *some Ateneans and La Sallians are apologizing *to me in private because of you. *

But at the end of the day, you are right in saying that you merely shared your feelings. Our discourse dragged on maybe because I did not react nor respond correctly to you, but that's only because I'm not reallly trained to be a shrink. For that I apologize. *

Having said the foregoing, I will allow Guardian Angel to have the last say on this issue, if that is what will make him happy and sleep soundly at night with a smile on his face. *:)

Salsa, no worries. Let's have a powwow after the holy week. * :)

Jump_Shooter, I apologize. Back to regular programming. :)

Guardian Angel
04-01-2009, 10:55 PM
Salsa, I apologize but LION seems to still be hot under the collar.

For this reason, I will just keep quiet, work hard, and hope to one day be able to afford 300k for basketball tickets I will never buy.

danny
04-02-2009, 02:40 AM
A simple solution to stop scalping.

Price the scalpers out of the market. It's still is a free market economy people.

Apparently, the scalpers understand that the tickets for Ateneo and La Salle games are under priced, discounted in other words. Since the seating capacity of any venue is limited given the number of people who want to watch the games, the scalpers are making a killing.

The UAAP should start selling the tickets based on the market price of these games. The price that the Blue and Green are actually willing and able to pay for this social event.

Price out the scalpers, and let only those who are able to pay be allowed to watch the games live. Guys understand that Ateneo-La Salle UAAP games have morphed into a big social event rather than a BASKETBALL WAR ZONE. You just have to pay the price to belong. ;D

No worries guys.

PAX!

pablohoney
04-02-2009, 11:28 AM
Scalping is bad.
It's never justifiable. ;)

A-boy97
04-02-2009, 02:37 PM
A simple solution to stop scalping.

Price the scalpers out of the market. It's still is a free market economy people.

Apparently, the scalpers understand that the tickets for Ateneo and La Salle games are under priced, discounted in other words. Since the seating capacity of any venue is limited given the number of people who want to watch the games, the scalpers are making a killing.*

The UAAP should start selling the tickets based on the market price of these games. The price that the Blue and Green are actually willing and able to pay for this social event.*

Price out the scalpers, and let only those who are able to pay be allowed to watch the games live.* Guys understand that Ateneo-La Salle UAAP games have morphed into a big social event rather than a BASKETBALL WAR ZONE.* *You just have to pay the price to belong.* * ;D

No worries guys.

PAX!


Good suggestion sir danny but I think this would not work. I humbly think you cannot price out scalpers because they are backed by big money groups. If you increase the price of the ticket, scalpers will just sell tickets at a higher price.

The best solution I think is transparency. Concretely show the allocation of tickets. As an example, if Ateneo will be given, 3000 upper A tickets, show at the beginning of the season how many are season ticket holders and how many they will sell to the rest.

As the games get more exciting and crucial, allocation of tickets seem to be suspect because they sell less and less premium tickets.

Jump_Shooter
04-02-2009, 03:40 PM
Please continue all discussions about scalping here.

salsa caballero
04-03-2009, 12:07 AM
Salsa, I apologize but LION seems to still be hot under the collar.

For this reason, I will just keep quiet, work hard, and hope to one day be able to afford 300k for basketball tickets I will never buy.


Like I said, beer na malamig lang ang katapat niyan. I can watch the above-mentioned games from home provided I have my beer. Offer still open to both of you. I do not, as a rule, deal with scalpers, but I can always deal with two reasonable individuals who respect each others' differences in opinion. Diversity is what makes societies thrive, so let's celebrate diversity together and remember the latin maxim: in vino veritas.

shyboy
04-03-2009, 07:34 AM
The oldies have a better idea and experience in scalping. ;D

Kid Cubao
04-03-2009, 08:21 AM
bottom line is, to stop scalping, then stop buying grossly-overpriced tickets from scalpers. if the games are broadcast on free TV, with all the commercials and inane play-by-play coverage, then it's a small price to pay in helping solve this perennial problem. look at it from a supply and demand perspective. less demand will eventually lead to a gradual loss in incentive for scalpers to perpetuate their monkey business. like the old saw goes, if you're not helping solve the problem, then consider yourself part of the problem.

Wang-Bu
04-03-2009, 09:21 AM
Ang ticket na mula sa scalper para ding droga. Simple lang naman ang solusyon sa parehong suliranin: huwag mong bilhin.

Sabi nga ng mga nagluluto ng bato: Hindi nyo na kami kailangang hulihin at kusa kaming maglalaho kapag nawala na ang mga adik. Kaya ang pinakamaganda siguraduhin niyong hindi maging adik ang mga anak ninyo.

Ganun din ang ticket sa UAAP. Tama si Sir Cubao, supply-demand lang 'yan. Kung walang demand kesehodang may supply, pandingas lang 'yan o pamunas ng tumbong.

Tignan na lang natin ang pinaka-recent na kaso: Game 2 nung Ateneo-Lasalle nitong Season 71. Biruin mo nung Game 1 ultimo pala ang Dick Gordon at Manny Pangilinan galing scalper ang ticket.

Biglang nung Game 2 halos umiyak ang mga scalper sa dami ng mga nagsoli ng ticket at alam na daw na Ateneo na champion. Mahal nilang nabili ang mga Game 2 na ticket at mas mahal nila sanang ipapasa, biglang nawalan ng gana karamihan sa manonood at ayun, lugi-lugi sila.

Ang mas mahalaga namang dapat tutukan dito gaya ng nabanggit na ng iba dito ay kung sino ba ang scalper at sino ang nagbebenta lang ng ticket.

Kung kunwari ako mismo pumila ng pagkatagal-tagal at nakakuha ako ng Lower Box na ticket, tapos naisipan kong ibenta kung kanino dahil bigla akong nangailangan ng pera, scalper na ba ako?

O kaya may dalawa akong Patron na ticket, biglang nag-text sa akin si Angel Locsin na hindi daw siya makakasipot at nagtagal sila sa taping. Naisipan ko ngayon ibenta na lang kung kanino sobra kong ticket, scalper na ba ako?

Papano kung ang pagkakabenta ko sa mga ticket na nabanggit na dinoble ko, pero may kumagat naman, na hindi ko pinilit at hindi ko naman tinutukan ng baril sa sentido. Scalper na ba ako?

JonarSabilano
04-03-2009, 10:18 AM
Sa tingin ko naman, Pareng Wang-bu, kung ibenta mo ang patron ticket sa selling price nito, hindi naman scalping yun. Then again, kung si Angel Locsin ang date ko dapat sa mismong araw ng laro, aba'y bigla kong babaguhin ang iskedyul ko. Maglalagay na lang ako ng TV sa shooting location niya...

Dark Knight
04-03-2009, 10:34 AM
Sir Wang Bu

Sa aking pananaw, depende sa sitwasyon ng bawat tao ang pagtangkilik sa mga scalper. Madaling sabihing huwag bumili ng tiket sa mga scalper pero kung kapit sa patalim ka na, bibili at bibili ka rin.

Ang ibig kong sabihin ay kung kampeonato na ng, halimbawa, ng Ateneo at La Salle, at may isang napaka hardcore na fan ng isa sa nga paaraalang ito, at naubusan na sya ng tiket, na sa dinami daming dahilan ay hindi sya nakabili ng tiket sa lehitimong paraan. Sa tingin ko ay gagawin nya ang lahat ng paraan para makapanood ng live. Kasama na ang pagbili sa mga scalper.

Para sa akin, hanggat wala kang sinaktang tao, at pinaghirapan mo ang ipinangbili mo at di mo ninakaw, okey lang siguro.

Tutal, minsan lang naman ito sa isang taon. (pero sa bandang huli, mali pa rin. ;D)

Guardian Angel
04-03-2009, 11:04 AM
Tignan na lang natin ang pinaka-recent na kaso: Game 2 nung Ateneo-Lasalle nitong Season 71. Biruin mo nung Game 1 ultimo pala ang d*ck Gordon at Manny Pangilinan galing scalper ang ticket.


I wonder if they really got tickets from scalpers.* I doubt that.* They are VIPs who can surely get ticket allotments.* Especially MVP who is the team's main booster.


Biglang nung Game 2 halos umiyak ang mga scalper sa dami ng mga nagsoli ng ticket at alam na daw na Ateneo na champion. Mahal nilang nabili ang mga Game 2 na ticket at mas mahal nila sanang ipapasa, biglang nawalan ng gana karamihan sa manonood at ayun, lugi-lugi sila.

Ang mas mahalaga namang dapat tutukan dito gaya ng nabanggit na ng iba dito ay kung sino ba ang scalper at sino ang nagbebenta lang ng ticket.

Kung kunwari ako mismo pumila ng pagkatagal-tagal at nakakuha ako ng Lower Box na ticket, tapos naisipan kong ibenta kung kanino dahil bigla akong nangailangan ng pera, scalper na ba ako?



No.




O kaya may dalawa akong Patron na ticket, biglang nag-text sa akin si Angel Locsin na hindi daw siya makakasipot at nagtagal sila sa taping. Naisipan ko ngayon ibenta na lang kung kanino sobra kong ticket, scalper na ba ako?




No




Papano kung ang pagkakabenta ko sa mga ticket na nabanggit na dinoble ko, pero may kumagat naman, na hindi ko pinilit at hindi ko naman tinutukan ng baril sa sentido. Scalper na ba ako?


Yes.

Kid Cubao
04-03-2009, 11:22 AM
extreme fanaticism is also one major reason why scalping continues to persist. again, like i earlier said, the only way to put a stop to this criminal activity is to simply say no to overpriced tickets. the vicious cycle will have to end somewhere.

salsa caballero
04-03-2009, 12:39 PM
Sa mga kumukuha sa scalpers, stopping this activity will be analogous to a drug addict going cold turkey. Definitely salutary in effect, but hellish in process :)

Kaya masugpo? Maari. Pero mahirap. Going by the previous analogy, marami pa ring dumudurog :)

Wang-Bu
04-03-2009, 03:45 PM
Sir Guardian, ibig po bang sabihin kahit nakuha ko naman sa lehitimong paraan ang ticket ko, kunwari pumila naman ako gaya ng ibang ordinaryong manunuod, at biglang hindi ko na gagamitin, hindi ko pwedeng ibenta ang isang bagay na ako naman ang lehitimong nagmamay-ari sa presyo na mapagkakasunduan naman namin ng bibili?

Parang hindi naman yata tama 'yon. Akin ang ticket, nais kong ibenta sa isang presyo na ako ang nagtakda, may kumagat sa presyo na 'yon, ibig palang sabihin labag sa batas ang ginawa ko?

Guardian Angel
04-03-2009, 05:31 PM
Yes.

Dark Knight
04-03-2009, 05:36 PM
Siguro, kung ginagawa ng hanapbuhay ng tao ang pagbenta ng tiket, iyon siguro ang scalping. Ibig kong sabihin ay kung tuwing may laro, bibili si scalper ng ilang tikets para lamang ibenta sa mga naubusan. Kungbaga ay sinasadya nya na magbenta.

Pero kung bumili ka ng tiket, at may biglang nag text sa yo na mayroon kang emergency meeting at di mo na sya magagamit, at iyong ibinenta, wala sigurong masama roon dahil hindi mo naman iyon sinadya.

Kahit tinubuan mo pa.

RockLobster
04-03-2009, 06:43 PM
On Wang-Bu's and Dark Knight's question on a fan re-selling his ticket, at a profit, because he won't be able to watch, I think I get Guardian Angel's point on his "yes" answer.

If you need to re-sell the ticket, I think it's only proper to re-sell it at the same cost. Even though you had to line-up for it, it's not the buyer's fault that you can't watch the game, so why should he pay a higher price? I guess it's all part of what you're giving up at that moment, i.e. seeing the game and the effort to be there to see it, because you had to give priority to something else.

To say that it's negotiated, that the buyer agreed to the price anyway, and is therefore fair, is like saying taxi drivers should be allowed to contract fare prices with consenting passengers, instead of using their cab meters. Even if the passenger agrees, it was wrong in the first place to even negotiate.

But I do agree that for as long as people are buying from these scalpers, we probably won't see the end of it--and this discussion--in the near future.

razor
04-03-2009, 09:19 PM
Sa QC lang ba may anti-scalping ordinance?

LION
04-04-2009, 12:37 AM
On Wang-Bu's and Dark Knight's question on a fan re-selling his ticket, at a profit, because he won't be able to watch, I think I get Guardian Angel's point on his "yes" answer.

If you need to re-sell the ticket, I think it's only proper to re-sell it at the same cost. Even though you had to line-up for it, it's not the buyer's fault that you can't watch the game, so why should he pay a higher price? I guess it's all part of what you're giving up at that moment, i.e. seeing the game and the effort to be there to see it, because you had to give priority to something else.

To say that it's negotiated, that the buyer agreed to the price anyway, and is therefore fair, is like saying taxi drivers should be allowed to contract fare prices with consenting passengers, instead of using their cab meters. Even if the passenger agrees, it was wrong in the first place to even negotiate.

But I do agree that for as long as people are buying from these scalpers, we probably won't see the end of it--and this discussion--in the near future.




Maybe you can give us another example, Rock. Taxicabs are public utility vehicles. They are not allowed to negotiate fares. That would be a violation of their franchise.

LION
04-04-2009, 12:46 AM
What if I buy a piece of land and sell it again for profit? Is this allowed or not considering that millions of Filipinos are homeless.

What if I buy RTW clothes and sell it also for profit? Allowed or not?

Btw, there are some blues and greens who, in reality, take pride in the high prices of tickets from scalpers because they consider it as proof of the popularity of a DLSU vs. ADMU game. Papano na lang pag di na pinapatulan ng scalpers ang mga laro ng bughaw at berde? Is that good or bad?

Kid Cubao
04-04-2009, 05:54 AM
let's set the parameters for scalping. first, you try to create an artificial shortage by cornering, in practice, as many tickets for the premium sections. second, what happens is an artificial spike in demand, in effect closing the market for such tickets at the advertised price. right under the noses of authorities, scalpers are able to manipulate the market so they can resell the tickets at rates much higher than their stated costs.

it's different under free enterprise. a legitimate business operates under a free market, and free markets depend on competition as well as a regulatory body to ensure that monopoly power is not misused to stifle competition or exploit consumers' lack of options. when you buy and sell land or RTW apparel, it is an ongoing business, and to stay in business, one has to declare income derived from that enterprise and pay tax accordingly. moreover, consumers have a choice to exercise their options on the basis of price and/or reliability. on the other hand, scalping is a distortion of everything that a free market stands for. the fact that scalpers do not declare the income derived from their skulduggery provides evidence of the distortion i mentioned, kaya nga ilegal ito sa maraming aspeto.

the thing is, nobody really is forcing us to buy from scalpers save for pressure and the "need" to be part of a social event like an ateneo-la salle game. my advice is exercise one's options as a consumer--kung naka-televise naman, panoorin nyo na lang ng barkada sa TV. resist the urge, use the money instead to buy better booze than the usual ;D

danny
04-04-2009, 09:25 AM
Scalping exists because there's an economic incentive to do it. Given a limited number of seats with a really high demand, selling the tickets at a perceived discounted rate will allow scalping to flourish.

Price the ticket based on the perceived premium that people are willing and able to buy, then you lessen the incentive to scalp because the profit that the scalper expected was already factored in by the official ticket sellers.

Beyond a certain price, the scalper's profit will be squeezed. Downside, only those who can pay the price can watch an event.

Again, this is all about taking away to incentive to scalp by pricing them out of the market.

I agree with Lion. Some people take pride in the high prices of their tickets. And that's good for the bottomline if you are the seller. As for the buyer? The psychic reward of being there. ;D

Guardian Angel
04-04-2009, 11:06 AM
What if I buy a piece of land and sell it again for profit? Is this allowed or not considering that millions of Filipinos are homeless.

What if I buy RTW clothes and sell it also for profit? Allowed or not?

Btw, there are some blues and greens who, in reality, take pride in the high prices of tickets from scalpers because they consider it as proof of the popularity of a* *DLSU vs. ADMU game. Papano na lang pag di na pinapatulan ng scalpers ang mga laro ng bughaw at berde?* Is that good or bad?






Following your own style of strict and narrow interpretation of analogies, land and tickets cannot be compared with each other because they are obviously different. Same with clothes and tickets.* You cannot, on the one hand, shoot down analogies because they are not identical to the situation compared to, but at the same time conveniently resort to your analogies to try (unsuccessfully) to prove your point.

Moreover, based on your argument, IF an item, product or commodity is priced based on the supply and demand -- regardless of the circumstances surrounding -- then it cannot be punishable by law or regulated.* That simply cannot be.*

I again return to my discussion and comparison of scalping to manipulation of the stock market, which you deftly eluded earlier.*

1.* The general public does not really care about shares of stock, as most people just struggle to put food on their tables. Hence, I'd say less than 1% of the population are concerned.
2.* Shares can be priced based on the market, and hence are private transactions.

Yet an entire law was enacted and has not been struck down trying to protect market manipulators. I'm sure you have encountered the RSA in your practice.

How about this example -- Mr. A talks to a supplier of fish.* Knowing that the Lenten season is upon us and naturally raises the demand for non meat products, Mr. A connives with suppliers, corners the supply and thereafter controls the distribution, thus creating an artificial shortage.* Mr. A then prices the fish higher to take advantage of the increased demand, which was exacerbated by Mr. A's own machinations. The public is then "forced" to accept the higher price of fish.* Of course, in reality, the public had a choice -- not to buy the fish or try to haggle for a lower price.* In the end, therefore, it would still be a consensual agreement.*

Does this mean Mr. A acted within the bounds of the law and is completely free from legal liability?* If your answer is yes, I will refer you to the antitrust/unfair competition provisions of our laws (yes, admittedly, they are not as complex and far reaching as the US counterparts, but we have to make do).*

Of course fish and tickets are not exactly the same, you will say.* But neither are land/clothes and tickets in the same category. Thus, if we choose to analogize, we have to accept that we are going after the principles and logic behind the examples, and not their exact identity.

Pardon my verbosity.* Just wanted to share my P300,000 worth.

Joescoundrel
04-04-2009, 11:51 AM
Sa QC lang ba may anti-scalping ordinance?


I'd like to know the definition of scalping according to this supposed QC ordinance.

To me everything discussed here is, as Danny and Cubao have mentioned, nothing more than supply-demand economics. There is a demand, there is supply, price is fixed, commodities are bought.

If some one were stupid enough - or fanatic enough - to buy a premium ticket to a ball game at a gazillion times its indicated price I personally would not sympathize with the "poor" buyer.

Again as mentioned by several of our fellows here there is always the option NOT to buy scalped tickets.

Oyster Boy at Shopwise has a nice giant screen TV and great eats to go with ice cold beer, just in case you cannot get into the Big Dome. I did precisely that with several others in the Season 71 Ateneo-Lasalle Round 1 game.

In Game 2 of the Season 71 Finals this same group of people and I were over at a friend's house to watch Ateneo win its third UAAP championship over Lasalle and we loved every minute of it. Plus we had the advantage of having really good home-cooked food, beer, soda and even smoking breaks.

Why on earth would any right-thinking person trade any of these above scenarios for a P50,000 Patron ticket?

Scalped tickets? To those who must absolutely be there, knock yourselves out.

Guardian Angel
04-04-2009, 12:11 PM
Incidentally, I just want to make clear that, while I am immersed in an argument on whether scalping is or should be illegal, I am also in agreement with the practical statements made by many here that it will stop when the buying stops.

What I find abhorrent in scalping, and the reason I am all for its criminalization, is because it deprives legitimate buyers of a fair chance to get tickets. It's not so much that people who want the tickets are forced to shell out more -- indeed, that is their decision. It is, however, grossly unfair for those who want to watch the game or event, but only for the price stated in the ticket, wake up early, line up, and go through all the trouble -- only to be told that the tickets have run out -- and obviously because scalping syndicates have cornered a bulk of those being legitimately sold.

It doesn't even have to be an Ateneo-La Salle game. Go to any game in ULTRA or NAS. Even as you are getting out of your car or walking from a distance, scalpers are in your face, harassing you and practically forcing you to buy. Sure, you have a choice to ignore them, but even that practice is irritating, to say the least. If only for peace and order, they should be prevented from approaching people and scalping their tickets.

Worse, in some games in these venues the ticket booth will tell you tickets are "sold out", but scalpers are all over the place still selling tickets. When you do get into the venue, you will see that there are so many seats vacant. Clearly, therefore, what happens is the scalpers gamble on the tickets to force a shortage. Quite the opposite of the normal supply and demand rules happens in such a case -- the supply can easily meet the demand, but this is not reflected.

RockLobster
04-04-2009, 02:07 PM
What if I buy a piece of land and sell it again for profit? Is this allowed or not considering that millions of Filipinos are homeless. What if I buy RTW clothes and sell it also for profit? Allowed or not?


Maybe you make a point that cab fares and game tickets are different. Admittedly, I didn't really look at it in terms of whether a product or service is of a public nature or not. I just thought that whether it's transportation or the Ateneo-La Salle game at the Araneta, there is a set price, and that price should be followed when the product or service is purchased.

If you talk about land, profit from investing in land does not come in the form of merely re-selling it at a marked-up price. It's not as liquid as a game ticket. You lease it long-term to earn yourself rent, and at the same time allow improvement to be introduced onto the property that can add value. Then again, there is the SM phenomena, wherein you'll instantly see your land's capital value rise soon as an SM mall goes up in its immediate vicinity. A bit of the same with ready-to-wear clothing. It's definitely an easier merchandise to move compared to land, but again, there's more that you put into it than merely purchasing and re-selling.

It just came to me. The clamor against scalping comprises also in the fact that while students and fans are allowed to purchase one or two tickets only at a time, these scalpers seem to be able to get a hold of more tickets to re-sell. While basketball followers are there to pursue their passion, these scalpers who don't even give a sh*t about the game get a kick out of re-selling the tickets at twice the price.

danny
04-04-2009, 02:17 PM
A simple problem really. Increase the prices to the point only a few will buy. Then you stop scalping. Ano ba kayo?

Guardian Angel
04-04-2009, 02:19 PM
Just to add to the taxi cab analogy by rocklobster. *I think the fact that it is regulated by government via a franchise SUPPORTS the position that government CAN and SHOULD intervene even in what could otherwise be described as free market transactions.

Indeed, Rock was trying to make the point that negotiating for a price, and the acceptance of the same does not always make the same correct or legal.

danny
04-04-2009, 02:22 PM
the thing is, nobody really is forcing us to buy from scalpers save for pressure and the "need" to be part of a social event like an ateneo-la salle game. my advice is exercise one's options as a consumer--kung naka-televise naman, panoorin nyo na lang ng barkada sa TV. resist the urge, use the money instead to buy better booze than the usual ;D




Unfortunately, there are people who will continue to buy from scalpers simply because they are willing and able to buy. *

Asking people not to buy from scalpers is not good enough. Make the UAAP realize that the price of the tickets are really undervalued. Jack up the price and squeeze the scalpers away.

The scalpers will eventually realize that the economic incentive of their activity is not worth it anymore.

danny
04-04-2009, 02:27 PM
Just to add to the taxi cab analogy by rocklobster. *I think the fact that it is regulated by government via a franchise SUPPORTS the position that government CAN and SHOULD intervene even in what could otherwise be described as free market transactions.

Indeed, Rock was trying to make the point that negotiating for a price, and the acceptance of the same does not always make the same correct or legal.



Yes. Government can intervene in the market. But it's not a free market anymore from the Austrian/Libertarian point of view. If you know your economic history, you will know what I mean. (Teka, ano undergrad mo?)

UAAP tickets are not considered within the realm of Public Goods. No need for government to intervene. Government has no business in the pricing of commodities especially tickets for social events.

Keynesians , communists, socialists and fascists argued that government can intervene in the market when it is in the realm of public goods. In other words, they can distort the pricing mechanism of the market when THEY see it fit. When THEY...teka, sino ba sila muna? ;D

danny
04-04-2009, 02:31 PM
extreme fanaticism is also one major reason why scalping continues to persist. again, like i earlier said, the only way to put a stop to this criminal activity is to simply say no to overpriced tickets. the vicious cycle will have to end somewhere.


It will end when the actual market price of tickets through official channels have been reached.* I guess, the scalper's price is near the equilibrium. The scalpers' profit from the Blue-and Green games can then be cornered by the UAAP itself.


But the UAAP Board will not* do that. Better an under priced ticket that creates more excitement and anxiety.* *;)*

Kaya kung bibili ka ng ticket na mahal, enjoy ka na lang. Yung walang ticket...manigas na lang.* Ganyan talaga buhay.

Suko na ako. Suggestion lang naman ang sa akin. Para sa iba sa inyo, huwag nang idamay gobyerno. Sige kayo, susunod pagkakitaan din kayo ng mga tao sa munisipyo na dapat magpatupad ng kung ano mang ordinansya diyan. Parang hindi naman natin alam ang takbo ng sikmura sa munisipyo.

;D

danny
04-04-2009, 03:42 PM
A simple solution to stop scalping.

Price the scalpers out of the market. It's still is a free market economy people.

Apparently, the scalpers understand that the tickets for Ateneo and La Salle games are under priced, discounted in other words. Since the seating capacity of any venue is limited given the number of people who want to watch the games, the scalpers are making a killing.*

The UAAP should start selling the tickets based on the market price of these games. The price that the Blue and Green are actually willing and able to pay for this social event.*

Price out the scalpers, and let only those who are able to pay be allowed to watch the games live.* Guys understand that Ateneo-La Salle UAAP games have morphed into a big social event rather than a BASKETBALL WAR ZONE.* *You just have to pay the price to belong.* * ;D

No worries guys.

PAX!


Good suggestion sir danny but I think this would not work.* I humbly think you cannot price out scalpers because they are backed by big money groups.* If you increase the price of the ticket, scalpers will just sell tickets at a higher price.

The best solution I think is transparency.* Concretely show the allocation of tickets.* As an example, if Ateneo will be given, 3000 upper A tickets, show at the beginning of the season how many are season ticket holders and how many they will sell to the rest.

As the games get more exciting and crucial, allocation of tickets seem to be suspect because they sell less and less premium tickets.



Scalpers can only resell the tickets at a certain price point where consumers are willing and able to buy them.

Of course transparency is also key together with a more "correct" ticket pricing.

Pero sa totoo lang. Hindi yan pwedend solusyonan sa pagbabawal ng scalping. O ano mang ordinansyang nagbabawal sa scalping.

A solution to a fundamentally economic phenomenon lies within the realm of economics. Transparency on the other hand is a UAAP option.

Take the economic incentive to scalp combined with your suggestion, you kill the reason to scalp. But are consumers willing to pay the price to squeeze the scalpers out of the market? Is the UAAP willing to be transparent?

From the discussion here, I don't think so.*

Therefore, to hardcore basketball supporters, magtiis sa bidding war kontra fashionista at* mga* gusto lang maki-join.

Daldal ko na. O siya...enjoy mga peeps!

LION
04-04-2009, 07:43 PM
What if I buy a piece of land and sell it again for profit? Is this allowed or not considering that millions of Filipinos are homeless.

What if I buy RTW clothes and sell it also for profit? Allowed or not?

Btw, there are some blues and greens who, in reality, take pride in the high prices of tickets from scalpers because they consider it as proof of the popularity of a* *DLSU vs. ADMU game. Papano na lang pag di na pinapatulan ng scalpers ang mga laro ng bughaw at berde?* Is that good or bad?






Following your own style of strict and narrow interpretation of analogies, land and tickets cannot be compared with each other because they are obviously different. Same with clothes and tickets.* You cannot, on the one hand, shoot down analogies because they are not identical to the situation compared to, but at the same time conveniently resort to your analogies to try (unsuccessfully) to prove your point.

Moreover, based on your argument, IF an item, product or commodity is priced based on the supply and demand -- regardless of the circumstances surrounding -- then it cannot be punishable by law or regulated.* That simply cannot be.*

I again return to my discussion and comparison of scalping to manipulation of the stock market, which you deftly eluded earlier.*

1.* The general public does not really care about shares of stock, as most people just struggle to put food on their tables. Hence, I'd say less than 1% of the population are concerned.
2.* Shares can be priced based on the market, and hence are private transactions.

Yet an entire law was enacted and has not been struck down trying to protect market manipulators. I'm sure you have encountered the RSA in your practice.

How about this example -- Mr. A talks to a supplier of fish.* Knowing that the Lenten season is upon us and naturally raises the demand for non meat products, Mr. A connives with suppliers, corners the supply and thereafter controls the distribution, thus creating an artificial shortage.* Mr. A then prices the fish higher to take advantage of the increased demand, which was exacerbated by Mr. A's own machinations. The public is then "forced" to accept the higher price of fish.* Of course, in reality, the public had a choice -- not to buy the fish or try to haggle for a lower price.* In the end, therefore, it would still be a consensual agreement.*

Does this mean Mr. A acted within the bounds of the law and is completely free from legal liability?* If your answer is yes, I will refer you to the antitrust/unfair competition provisions of our laws (yes, admittedly, they are not as complex and far reaching as the US counterparts, but we have to make do).*

Of course fish and tickets are not exactly the same, you will say.* But neither are land/clothes and tickets in the same category. Thus, if we choose to analogize, we have to accept that we are going after the principles and logic behind the examples, and not their exact identity.

Pardon my verbosity.* Just wanted to share my P300,000 worth.



It's not even worth 2 cents. :)

I'm not a shrink. Talk to someone else. :)

Guardian Angel
04-04-2009, 08:01 PM
It's not even worth 2 cents.* *:)

I'm not a shrink. Talk to someone else.* *:)


Your most eloquent retort so far.* Too bad it's non-responsive. Don't make that a habit in your practice, lest you diminish your (theoretical/imagined) capacity to buy overpriced tickets.

LION
04-04-2009, 11:46 PM
:-X ;D

danny
04-04-2009, 11:56 PM
In any case, it cannot be denied that because of the immense interest in Ateneo-La Salle games, scalping, which is demand driven, has become a problem and there is nothing wrong with the government stepping in to try to eliminate the problem.

PS, It is not true that scalping happens only during Ateneo-La Salle games, I think some scalpers try their luck in San Beda games too, but since the demand is not nearly as high as Ateneo-La Salle games, the prices are much lower.* Scalping is also very common for concerts.* *



Things got out of hand because of your perceived arrogance pare.

You started the verbal tussle with Lion. *It seems that you are the first person who actually take pride in the high ticket prices of an Ateneo-La Salle game vis-a-vis a San Beda game with anyone. Now you wan't government to step in because of your own folly?

Lion's point was simple. Oca's point was also simple yet correct in an economic and financial sense. *

Limited capacity. High demand. An economic incentive to scalp thus exist. Why are people buying still? The equilibirum price, the price buyers are willing and able to purchase is way above the suggested retail price of the UAAP.

If you guys are talking about artificial shortage or UAAP ticket syndicate, you need the NBI. Not the enforcement of a silly QC anti-scalping ordinance. * :D

Think.


Stock markets are priced based on nothing but perception. There is no rule that a certain P/E ratio should command a certain price. Same goes with houses, oil, etc. Governments can try to distort the prices. In the fx market, Macoy's Central Bank put a cap on the Peso-Dollare exchange rate at an artificial level because they think their official rates are correct. Result? The Binondo Central Bank Cartel.

This is simply the pricing of a commodity. Any commodity can be used as an analogy. *

On the other hand, you think the official UAAP price is correct thus you state that scalpers are just criminal profiteers. *They are good *economic thinkers, actually. Streetwise. *The incentive to scalp exists. They took that opportunity. *Sell the tickets to those who are willing and able to buy. Unfortunately there are a lot of you who are willing and able to buy just to belong.

Mind you, there is no economic return for the buyer to actually be part of the game live. It's a party after all. Not fanaticism but the "idea" to be part of a social event. Basketball? Oh no baby. It's a party to be seen.

You can never compare that to any San Beda game. 2/3 of Araneta is Red Army territory in important games against *any *ENEMY. *Ours is not a party after all. I like it that way. Many older Bedans like it too. *;D


Just enjoy your party. Pay the price.

danny
04-05-2009, 12:03 AM
It's not even worth 2 cents.* *:)

I'm not a shrink. Talk to someone else.* *:)


Your most eloquent retort so far.* Too bad it's non-responsive. Don't make that a habit in your practice, lest you diminish your (theoretical/imagined) capacity to buy overpriced tickets.


Who are buying "overpriced" tickets on the first place? Not us.

Ano ba yan! :D

blueatheart
04-05-2009, 02:09 AM
Guys, hinay hinay lang. This is slowly becoming a PEx-like thread...

Kid Cubao
04-05-2009, 06:10 AM
A simple problem really. Increase the prices to the point only a few will buy. Then you stop scalping. Ano ba kayo?


this i find hard to accept. eh papano yung mga bumibili sa mga legitimate sources at the advertised prices, are we putting them on the same boat as those who buy from scalpers? i'm sure you're aware that any price increase is difficult to justify, let alone for the reason you stated--na kelangang itaas ang presyo lalo na pag ateneo-la salle game para madala ang mga scalpers. the going*rates for ateneo-la salle games are already expensive as they are, and that's just for the tickets. dahil sa araneta ang playing venue, may idinaragdag pang mga gift certificates yan na kung susumahin mo'y dodoble ang halaga ng babayaran mo.*

what i'm saying is that marami nang hakbang ang sinubukan para puksain ang suliraning ito, pero may sablay pa rin sapagka't wala talagang fool-proof na sistema. it's up to us to just put our foot down and say no more, inyo na yan. also, if we can find another way to deter scalpers and their co-horts from creating an artificial shortage, then we might be on the right path.

go_flames_go
04-05-2009, 08:25 AM
Interesting discussion. Kakamiss tuloy yung init, amoy, pawis at ingay ng Rizal* :)

Guardian Angel
04-05-2009, 08:33 AM
In any case, it cannot be denied that because of the immense interest in Ateneo-La Salle games, scalping, which is demand driven, has become a problem and there is nothing wrong with the government stepping in to try to eliminate the problem.

PS, It is not true that scalping happens only during Ateneo-La Salle games, I think some scalpers try their luck in San Beda games too, but since the demand is not nearly as high as Ateneo-La Salle games, the prices are much lower.* Scalping is also very common for concerts.* *



Things got out of hand because of your perceived arrogance pare.

You started the verbal tussle with Lion. *It seems that you are the first person who actually take pride in the high ticket prices of an Ateneo-La Salle game vis-a-vis a San Beda game with anyone. Now you wan't government to step in because of your own folly?

Lion's point was simple. Oca's point was also simple yet correct in an economic and financial sense. *

Limited capacity. High demand. An economic incentive to scalp thus exist. Why are people buying still? The equilibirum price, the price buyers are willing and able to purchase is way above the suggested retail price of the UAAP.

If you guys are talking about artificial shortage or UAAP ticket syndicate, you need the NBI. Not the enforcement of a silly QC anti-scalping ordinance. * :D

Think.


Stock markets are priced based on nothing but perception. There is no rule that a certain P/E ratio should command a certain price. Same goes with houses, oil, etc. Governments can try to distort the prices. In the fx market, Macoy's Central Bank put a cap on the Peso-Dollare exchange rate at an artificial level because they think their official rates are correct. Result? The Binondo Central Bank Cartel.

This is simply the pricing of a commodity. Any commodity can be used as an analogy. *

On the other hand, you think the official UAAP price is correct thus you state that scalpers are just criminal profiteers. *They are good *economic thinkers, actually. Streetwise. *The incentive to scalp exists. They took that opportunity. *Sell the tickets to those who are willing and able to buy. Unfortunately there are a lot of you who are willing and able to buy just to belong.

Mind you, there is no economic return for the buyer to actually be part of the game live. It's a party after all. Not fanaticism but the "idea" to be part of a social event. Basketball? Oh no baby. It's a party to be seen.

You can never compare that to any San Beda game. 2/3 of Araneta is Red Army territory in important games against *any *ENEMY. *Ours is not a party after all. I like it that way. Many older Bedans like it too. *;D


Just enjoy your party. Pay the price.





Uy. *Nandito na ang resbak. *

You make many assumptions, "pare". *All my posts are here for you to read. *

Now tell me where I said (or implied) that I take pride in the high price of Ateneo-La Salle tickets. *If anything, I have been very clear that I hate scalping -- which would be inconsistent with that imagined implied statement.

Perceived arrogance? If you do not want to read opposing views, don't go to an internet forum. *Read back and check how the word war escalated. *I was merely giving an opinion -- as all of us are in this forum. *Some may be so used to people agreeing with them that disagreement or criticism is treated with belligerence. Well, that's not my fault. *I will not, however, be intimidated. I will say my piece, because I believe it is right and logical.

I do not question why you or LION are so interested in this scalping issue when, as you claim, it is not a problem for Beda games, nor ask why you Bedans are so immersed in discussions in the UAAP forum where your school does not even belong. *That's part of your freedom. *

However, you must be*tough enough to accept that not all your views will be accepted and some may be criticized. You talk tough but are onion-skinned when criticized. *You complain about perceived arrogance, but in the same message try, albeit unsuccessfully, to dazzle with an (imagined) expertise. *You claim you are not interested in the "social event" that is "Ateneo-La Salle" - but have spent so much time and energy arguing in a sub-forum where you are theoretically not supposed to be interested in, about an issue you claim does not apply to your school. * Talk about "WANTING TO BELONG."

Now, just so this argument does not veer too far off topic, or degenerate further -- I say this again. *I think scalping is a problem the government is correct to address. You impliedly admit this yourself when you say that the proper way to do it is to involve the NBI. *You disagree, however, that the enforcement of an ordinance would be proper. *Frankly, I don't see the difference. *If you can ask the NBI to step into an activity, it means public interest is involved. *LION's concern on the "wasting" of his tax pesos is likewise not addressed if the NBI, a government agency paid with our tax money, is involved. *

Scalping is a manipulation of market price, an abuse or oppression to those who legitimately want to enjoy the event, for the price stated in the ticket, done for profit. If, as you correctly say, the NBI can be tapped to step into or investigate this activity, it is because there is a criminal or illegal act on-going. *That is proof itself that the activity can and must be stopped.

I am also pleased with the statement you made and even underscored. *LION, whom you have taken great pains to defend, has been very strict in the application of analogies. *He says scalping is not like fencing because in fencing what is sold is a stolen item. *Scalping is not like usury because the usury law has been suspended (ngek, what an argument). *Scalping is not the same as hoarding because hoarding involves a public goods. *Scalping is not the same as taxi transactions because taxis are covered by franchises. *Ang higpit. *Napaka stricto. Hence, I fully agree with you. *Indeed, (a)ny commodity can be used as an analogy. *

Thus, if the government can punish fencing (regardless of knowledge by the fence that the item was stolen), or if the state can strike down an agreement for being usurious (even if the agreement was consensual), or if the government can penalize people who refuse to sell goods (even if that is within their rights in a free society), or force a taxi driver to charge based only on his meter, even if he can theoretically negotiate for a higher fare -- then the government can and must step in to punish a scalper.

Finally, PARE, if you feel the need to brag about San Beda, your crowd, your practices, you may want to take another look at what the issue really is. *Otherwise, you might give the impression that you are here, in this subforum, not really to argue on an issue, but to try to prove how you are doing things much better, or that you simply "belong". *I'm sure you wouldn't want people to think that. That would be a big blow to your Bedan "pride" or whatever it is you call it down there.....

yellow_we
04-05-2009, 09:18 AM
My two cents here. Sa tuwing pipila ako to buy tickets specially in Araneta, laging may nakapaskil sa screen nila na they can only allow a person to buy maximum of two tickets. But hell that doesn't happen for so many instances. I've been hearing for past seasons that it's actually the HOST school who has the control of the tickets and not the venues themselves. I guess I'm talking about the allocation of the tickets. I'm not sure though how many percent of these tickets are given to member schools to sell/distribute and in the venues (NAS,PHILSPORTS/ARANETA). Naaalala ko pa during season 69 when UST was in finals kahet nung Cheerdance nalang, One ticket per student lang ang pinagbigyan sa campus. Sa isip isip ko, san napadpad ang ibang tickets? Sa Araneta? At kung sa Araneta lang naman, for sure makikipagsiksikan ka sa haba ng pila, only to know that there are two dozens or so of people before you who don't belong to any UAAP member schools ang makakabili. Of course, UAAP is not only for its member schools but shouldn't we be the priority? After all, UAAP won't be UAAP if it's not because of the 8 member schools. I'm becoming redundant, WTF! I was thinking its just a matter of STRICTLY implementing the two-tickets policy in the venues and the ID system. Why not also allocate specific selling time to students/alumni in the venues? This is again just to prioritize the member schools.* ;) I still believe we have to start somewhere pero kung tayo tayo lang ang kakayod, nak ng! patuloy paren ang celebration ng mga lintik na scalpers na yan hanggang year kopong kopong. ;D

yellow_we
04-05-2009, 09:25 AM
duplicate post deleted.

Dark Knight
04-05-2009, 11:08 AM
It seems that scalping is here to stay. Lets accept it, its part of Filipino culture, just like jueteng and corruption. And the government is too numb to do something about it.

Leave it as it is. Nasa tao na yan kung bibili o hindi.

pablohoney
04-06-2009, 12:02 AM
Scalping is evil.


No excuses.


End of story.


;)

gfy
04-06-2009, 05:55 PM
If there's a law or ordinance (and it's not struck down as unsconstitutional), then it's illegal. It's also not right and doesn't really solve the problem to raise the prices of all the tickets to discourage scalping. Regulations and price controls are sometimes necessary in an economy such as ours(unlike in the USA and other countries). Take petroleum prices for example. In a big economy like in the USA where there are many sellers and competition is fierce and antitrust regulations are enforced, pump prices are really dictated by the market. Here? The market is controlled by the Big 3 (80%?). It's also funny that Joe Concepcion and the Energy Department have to regularly tell the oil companies to reduce prices (the oil companies just increase their prices when they want to).

A-boy97
04-07-2009, 01:04 AM
Grabe, ang init ng debate! ;D

Anyway, let us identify the problem. As stated by the topic, the problem is scalping. Is it for all UAAP games or only for some? How do we solve it?

I think the problem with scalping is limited to certain games. Usually, especially if the games are in Araneta, it is easy to get a ticket. I remember being able to purchase a "premium ticket" at ticket cost quite easily. Although Araneta says it only sells two tickets per head, THIS IS NOT TRUE for some games.

UAAP ticket scalping is only a problem WHEN the games are Ateneo vs. Dlsu, final four, finals, and probably cheer dancing competition. These are the biggest headache games for fans, whether harcore or not. I have to disagree with some people who brand Ateneo-la salle games as a social gathering. Believe me, even without the media hype, Ateneo-la salle games are hardcore basketball at its finest! I don't understand why some people from the NCAA are hitting on this "social event" issue. Personally, I don't really care or bother watching the other league since my school is not there anyway so I don't see the point why they are hitting on this. Maybe if you're from Benilde you can comment since it is also la salle but the other schools? ???

To solve the problem, I think it needs a bit of sacrifice from all parties concern. First, I strongly believe that if the UAAP is transparent with ticket allocations, then possible leakage of tickets to scalpers will be pinpointed easier. Secondly, do not buy scalped tickets. This may be hard for hardcore loyalists who have the means but eventually it will help solve the problem. I am hoping for that day to come where the broadcast team will claim to have a sold out event in a half filled arena. If this happens, then MAYBE the UAAP board, government and member schools will finally open their eyes and admit that there is indeed a problem with scalping.

Long term solutions? Maybe if the Philippines would have a bigger arena, yung tipong 50, 000-70, 000 ang capacity para everybody happy(or at least most people will be satisfied na!) ;D

Jump_Shooter
04-07-2009, 04:45 PM
I'm glad I made the right decision to create a separate thread for this topic, but it seems some of you still can't stand each other. Relax lang, mga parekoy.

As for me, I have come up with the perfect solution to eliminate scalping: let everyone watch for free! Kita ninyo sa PBL, walang scalping na nangyayari. ;D

RockLobster
04-07-2009, 09:13 PM
When THEY... teka, sino ba sila muna?


Same question I had, danny. Nililimitahan ang mga nanonood ng mga laro sa isa o dalawang ticket, a semblance of control against scalping, pero parang hindi pa man din dinudumog ng mga manonood ang Araneta, eh hawak na ng mga scalpers ang mga merchandise nila. Sino nga ba sila and, more importantly, sino ang koneksyon nila sa mga tickets na 'yan?

Joescoundrel
04-13-2009, 02:17 AM
For foreign acts performing in Big Dome, there are P20,000 Patron tickets sold for as much as P200,000 and there are still people buying them, so this is not just a UAAP phenomenon.

Bottom line: every thing is still supply and demand.

Simplest solution: don't buy scalped tickets.

danny
04-25-2009, 03:49 PM
For foreign acts performing in Big Dome, there are P20,000 Patron tickets sold for as much as P200,000 and there are still people buying them, so this is not just a UAAP phenomenon.

Bottom line: every thing is still supply and demand.

Simplest solution: don't buy scalped tickets.


Scarcity.* Limited number of tickets vis-a-vis the demand. If people will continue to buy overpriced tickets, that's their choice. That's the whole point of financial bubbles. From the Tulip Mania, the South Sea Bubble,* dot.com and now the Housing-Credit-Oil Price Bubble.

How long will it last in the Blue and Green games? As long as people are willing to pay more.

Unfortunately, only a few got it right.*

Thanks pareng Joe!*It all boils down to supply and demand.* The scalpers are mere channels of exchange where people are willing and able to buy. The scalpers are secondary market makers similar to condo flippers, used car dealers buying in bulk, and the stock market itself after an IPO.

Another solution is to put the bidding mechanism of the scalper right back to the UAAP itself. The UAAP can then put a floor price on the different tickets and have the public bid. That will be the ultimate dream of free market lovers. This will end the scalpers. However, this will not mean that the prices will start falling. Demand and Supply.


;)

danny
04-25-2009, 04:14 PM
Long term solutions?* Maybe if the Philippines would have a bigger arena, yung tipong 50, 000-70, 000 ang capacity para everybody happy(or at least most people will be satisfied na!) ;D



Exactly. You increase the supply vis-a-vis the demand. You got it right pare ko.

Is the government the solution in this case? Never. Jail the scalpers? A* different channel of exchange, another secondary market for tickets will be created. That's the market mechanism working for you if the demand is high. As long as there is an economic incentive to sell the tickets at higher prices and there are people willing to pay, this will continue.

It's a fundamental characteristic of the market.

However, your suggestion to increase the capacity, ergo the number of tickets to 50 to 70 K, then probably even the secondary market price of scalpers will stabilize near the suggested retail price.

Demand and supply.

gfy
04-25-2009, 07:05 PM
^ Danny - I was told in jest by FEU people that ringside tickets will now cost php 2000 for admu-dlsu and other important games. This should reduce scalping :).

danny
04-25-2009, 11:11 PM
^ Danny - I was told in jest by FEU people that ringside tickets will now cost php 2000 for admu-dlsu and other important games. This should reduce scalping* :).


A step in the right direction, gfy. ;D ;)

All is good. Pax!

Mang_Roger
04-27-2009, 09:38 AM
In any case, it cannot be denied that because of the immense interest in Ateneo-La Salle games, scalping, which is demand driven, has become a problem and there is nothing wrong with the government stepping in to try to eliminate the problem.

PS, It is not true that scalping happens only during Ateneo-La Salle games, I think some scalpers try their luck in San Beda games too, but since the demand is not nearly as high as Ateneo-La Salle games, the prices are much lower. Scalping is also very common for concerts.



Things got out of hand because of your perceived arrogance pare.

You started the verbal tussle with Lion. It seems that you are the first person who actually take pride in the high ticket prices of an Ateneo-La Salle game vis-a-vis a San Beda game with anyone. Now you wan't government to step in because of your own folly?

Lion's point was simple. Oca's point was also simple yet correct in an economic and financial sense.

Limited capacity. High demand. An economic incentive to scalp thus exist. Why are people buying still? The equilibirum price, the price buyers are willing and able to purchase is way above the suggested retail price of the UAAP.

If you guys are talking about artificial shortage or UAAP ticket syndicate, you need the NBI. Not the enforcement of a silly QC anti-scalping ordinance. :D

Think.


Stock markets are priced based on nothing but perception. There is no rule that a certain P/E ratio should command a certain price. Same goes with houses, oil, etc. Governments can try to distort the prices. In the fx market, Macoy's Central Bank put a cap on the Peso-Dollare exchange rate at an artificial level because they think their official rates are correct. Result? The Binondo Central Bank Cartel.

This is simply the pricing of a commodity. Any commodity can be used as an analogy.

On the other hand, you think the official UAAP price is correct thus you state that scalpers are just criminal profiteers. They are good economic thinkers, actually. Streetwise. The incentive to scalp exists. They took that opportunity. Sell the tickets to those who are willing and able to buy. Unfortunately there are a lot of you who are willing and able to buy just to belong.

Mind you, there is no economic return for the buyer to actually be part of the game live. It's a party after all. Not fanaticism but the "idea" to be part of a social event. Basketball? Oh no baby. It's a party to be seen.

You can never compare that to any San Beda game. 2/3 of Araneta is Red Army territory in important games against any ENEMY. Ours is not a party after all. I like it that way. Many older Bedans like it too. ;D


Just enjoy your party. Pay the price.





Uy. Nandito na ang resbak.

You make many assumptions, "pare". All my posts are here for you to read.

Now tell me where I said (or implied) that I take pride in the high price of Ateneo-La Salle tickets. If anything, I have been very clear that I hate scalping -- which would be inconsistent with that imagined implied statement.

Perceived arrogance? If you do not want to read opposing views, don't go to an internet forum. Read back and check how the word war escalated. I was merely giving an opinion -- as all of us are in this forum. Some may be so used to people agreeing with them that disagreement or criticism is treated with belligerence. Well, that's not my fault. I will not, however, be intimidated. I will say my piece, because I believe it is right and logical.

I do not question why you or LION are so interested in this scalping issue when, as you claim, it is not a problem for Beda games, nor ask why you Bedans are so immersed in discussions in the UAAP forum where your school does not even belong. That's part of your freedom.

However, you must be tough enough to accept that not all your views will be accepted and some may be criticized. You talk tough but are onion-skinned when criticized. You complain about perceived arrogance, but in the same message try, albeit unsuccessfully, to dazzle with an (imagined) expertise. You claim you are not interested in the "social event" that is "Ateneo-La Salle" - but have spent so much time and energy arguing in a sub-forum where you are theoretically not supposed to be interested in, about an issue you claim does not apply to your school. Talk about "WANTING TO BELONG."

Now, just so this argument does not veer too far off topic, or degenerate further -- I say this again. I think scalping is a problem the government is correct to address. You impliedly admit this yourself when you say that the proper way to do it is to involve the NBI. You disagree, however, that the enforcement of an ordinance would be proper. Frankly, I don't see the difference. If you can ask the NBI to step into an activity, it means public interest is involved. LION's concern on the "wasting" of his tax pesos is likewise not addressed if the NBI, a government agency paid with our tax money, is involved.

Scalping is a manipulation of market price, an abuse or oppression to those who legitimately want to enjoy the event, for the price stated in the ticket, done for profit. If, as you correctly say, the NBI can be tapped to step into or investigate this activity, it is because there is a criminal or illegal act on-going. That is proof itself that the activity can and must be stopped.

I am also pleased with the statement you made and even underscored. LION, whom you have taken great pains to defend, has been very strict in the application of analogies. He says scalping is not like fencing because in fencing what is sold is a stolen item. Scalping is not like usury because the usury law has been suspended (ngek, what an argument). Scalping is not the same as hoarding because hoarding involves a public goods. Scalping is not the same as taxi transactions because taxis are covered by franchises. Ang higpit. Napaka stricto. Hence, I fully agree with you. Indeed, (a)ny commodity can be used as an analogy.

Thus, if the government can punish fencing (regardless of knowledge by the fence that the item was stolen), or if the state can strike down an agreement for being usurious (even if the agreement was consensual), or if the government can penalize people who refuse to sell goods (even if that is within their rights in a free society), or force a taxi driver to charge based only on his meter, even if he can theoretically negotiate for a higher fare -- then the government can and must step in to punish a scalper.

Finally, PARE, if you feel the need to brag about San Beda, your crowd, your practices, you may want to take another look at what the issue really is. Otherwise, you might give the impression that you are here, in this subforum, not really to argue on an issue, but to try to prove how you are doing things much better, or that you simply "belong". I'm sure you wouldn't want people to think that. That would be a big blow to your Bedan "pride" or whatever it is you call it down there.....


Diyos ko pong maawain! Heto na po. Ayos na sana kahit papaano ang diskusyon, bigla mo pang sinindihan ang aircon.

Ano ba pinapakain sa iskuwela mo iho bakit masyadong mataas ang ihi mo?

Dapat yata balut kinakain ng batang ire.

toti_mendiola
04-27-2009, 01:16 PM
Kaya pala maginaw kahit tirik na tirik ang araw.

atenean_blooded
05-01-2009, 12:01 AM
Scalping's a bitch, but I will be honest enough to admit that I've benefited from scalping (as the purchaser only, of course) several times. And since we've been using economics to try and analyze this, let's just say that yes, because of the limited supply, I was willing to pay a premium price especially since I was not as diligent in getting the tickets at the proper prices even if I wanted to watch the game.

Scalping's a bitch, but I'm not sure if I want government to get involved in any other manner than passing laws or ordinances prohibiting scalping and enforcing them when the proper actions are taken by concerned citizens. We as consumers have to be more involved if we want scalping to be stopped. And we can do this by really pointing at scalpers in a crowd for security (or the police) to take care of them.

Raising the price of tickets (prices rise every year, correct) dramatically sounds like a good way to let the market take its course. But we have to remember that some scalpers have quite a lot of money and will be able to purchase tickets anyway. I think the UAAP and Araneta are taking steps in the right direction by requiring students to present their IDs.

Will it be better to simply increase the number of available tickets? There's got to be a way for the UAAP to address its need for sponsors while eliminating free tickets given to sponsors and other non-paying patrons and which will be better purchased by people who are willing to pay to watch.

Joescoundrel
05-01-2009, 09:29 AM
I caught the PBA games at the Bog Dome last Wednesday and I must say it warmed my heart to see the scalpers outside. The box office clearly stated that Patron to Lower Box tickets were all sold out, but a few of the vultures outside were trying to hawk Patron tickets at P100, and no one was buying. Then again, that's the PBA, and no one really gives much of a hoot about the PBA nowadays.