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thadzonline
11-06-2008, 11:53 AM
The Philippines seems like taking the road Qatar traversed letting foreigners play for the national team and claim them as natural-born citizens.

Up until now, I have not been convinced of the Filipino ancestry of Asi Taulava and Mick Pennisi and there are unresolved technical circumstances surrounding the citizenship of Gabe Norwood and Danny Seigle. We have even allowed Alex Crisano to stay, by all means, he can be considered a naturalized citizen considering that he only got a special order to become a Filipino citizen.

I am all for the Philippines regaining Asian supremacy and world recognition in basketball once more, but please, in the process, let us not lose our integrity

joelex
11-06-2008, 12:27 PM
dibale ng may import na naturalized basta't isa lang, kaysa 3/4 ng team questionable ang filipino citizenship

chinito_guy
11-06-2008, 02:08 PM
The Philippines seems like taking the road Qatar traversed letting foreigners play for the national team and claim them as natural-born citizens.

Up until now, I have not been convinced of the Filipino ancestry of Asi Taulava and Mick Pennisi and there are unresolved technical circumstances surrounding the citizenship of Gabe Norwood and Danny Seigle. We have even allowed Alex Crisano to stay, by all means, he can be considered a naturalized citizen considering that he only got a special order to become a Filipino citizen.

I am all for the Philippines regaining Asian supremacy and world recognition in basketball once more, but please, in the process, let us not lose our integrity



DANNY SEIGLE* ???


from: http://www.alaskaaces.com.ph/?page_id=19&forumaction=showposts&forum=2&thread=1960&start=0




If the player was born in philippines and one of the parent is a filipino citizen during the date of birth nung player at di naman waived yung pagka-filipino nung parent nya regardless of where lumaki yung considered as pure filipino siya.

And if both parents were only filipino citizen during the birthdate of the player regardless kung saan siya pinanganak at lumaki, as long as registered siya dito sa pilipinas, pure-filipino siya.

If both parents are not filipino (or in any way not inhibit filipino citizenship) regardless where pinanganak yung player (even dito sa pinas) he is still considered Foreigner like Compton.

PURE-FILIPINO = both parents are PURE FILIPINO (during birthdate of the player and does not acquire dual citizenship) and born here in Philippines or born abroad is still Pure Filipino. Like Miller (pinoy magulang dito rin sa pinas pinanganak); like Caguioa (pinoy magulang dito rin sa pinas pinanganak; regardless kung saan siya lumaki).

one parent has one citizenship (foreign citizen) and the other parent have one citizenship (filipino) or have dual citizenship (filipino and foreigner) during the birthdate of the player and the player’s birthplace was in the Philippines and registered in the Philippines he is pure filipino and doesnt acquire dual citizenship when he grew up abroad is considered Pure-Pinoy.

Example, wala akong maisip kasi wala pa yatang ganitong instance na parent is one Pinoy & one Foreigner at the same time birthplace ng cager ay dito sa Philippines.

FIL-FOREIGN = one parent has one citizenship (foreign citizen) and the other parent have one citizenship (filipino) or have dual citizenship (filipino and foreigner; and didn’t waived his filipino citizenship) during the birthdate of the player and the player’s birthplace was abroad and registered in that foreign country he is considered FIL-FOREIGN, if he acquired dual citizenship when he grew up abroad.

Like: Mike Cortez both parents are born as Filipino but migrated in America and was able to acquire dual citizenship and Mike was born in San Jose California, Danny Seigle her mother was born in the Philippines but his father is a foreigner; her mother acquired dual citizenship and did not waived his Filipino citizenship and Danny S. was born in Scranton Pennsylvania USA. Both are considered Fil-Foreigner.

Citizenship is regradless of where they grew unless they have acquire dual citizenship and waived their Filipino citizenship they are considered Foreigner.

FOREIGN = both parents no filipino citizenship + player either born in abroad or phils.

FIL-FOREIGNER = both parents (even born in Phils) acquired dual citizenship the time the player was born + player either born in abroad or phils.

PURE-FILIPINO = both parents are filipino + player either born in abroad or phils.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Just wanted to share this topic about Fil-foreign players and I would have to say that I will always be a "Dynamite" fan.* 8)

CrossOver
11-06-2008, 04:47 PM
Nakapangasawa diba si Asi Taulava ng Filipina? so considered na din siya na Filipino pagganon? paki correct if mali ako.

thadzonline
11-06-2008, 10:05 PM
^marrying a Filipina does not make one a natural-born Filipino..as to the Seigle case, my apologies if I have been too hard but there have been rumors before that technicalities made Andy a legit Philippine citizen while the same does not go for Danny..

D_I_A
11-06-2008, 10:55 PM
di ba may lumabas na legal tender ang DOJ about Gabe Norwood's case?

thadzonline
11-06-2008, 11:26 PM
^some sort of cover-up? Para ma justify ang pagbigay nila ng passport in the haste to let him play sa Tokushima? Again, I'd rather have each one's case resolved with finality with all technicalities being ironed out

PilipinasFan
11-07-2008, 10:17 PM
i think there is no question about asi taulava's and danny seigle's being a filipino., they provided the necessary documents already to prove his filipino lineage when he got suspended by the pba when the league made investigations on fake fil-shams., as to gabe norwood, the supreme court reviewed his papers and decided that he is a filipino.,

they might look like they're aliens to this country but i believe that, through their actions and words, they had already proven that they indeed are filipinos., lets take norwood for example, he rejected an offer to play in australia and other high profile leagues in europe to be able to play in the pba, that way, he said, would give him the opportunity to play for the philippine tricolors. asi taulava too had showed heart that a true filipino posseses when he played for our national team in the busan asian games and the japan fiba tournament., he was undersized but yet he proved that his filipino heart can overmatch them.,

thadzonline
11-08-2008, 12:41 PM
am sorry, but to appear playing so hard for the country does not make one a Filipino right there and then. Of course, shams will always do that to protect their interests. As to the circumstances of the other cases, it's more actually an accommodation of the fact that there was a mistake in the first place when they were issued Philippine passports prior to the resolution of their citizenship issues. Read Sec. Gonzales and the tone that he advocates. As to one fellow familiar with the cases, "it's better to recognize them as Filipinos since they have represented the country already and it would be a shame to expose our dirty laundry to the world and be branded as cheats"

2sc1
11-08-2008, 01:39 PM
^marrying a Filipina does not make one a natural-born Filipino..as to the Seigle case, my apologies if I have been too hard but there have been rumors before that technicalities made Andy a legit Philippine citizen while the same does not go for Danny..


It was Andy who was questioned, not Danny, according to this article:
http://www.newsflash.org/2003/05/sp/sp002773.htm

sajubeads
11-09-2008, 07:17 AM
am sorry, but to appear playing so hard for the country does not make one a Filipino right there and then. Of course, shams will always do that to protect their interests. As to the circumstances of the other cases, it's more actually an accommodation of the fact that there was a mistake in the first place when they were issued Philippine passports prior to the resolution of their citizenship issues. Read Sec. Gonzales and the tone that he advocates. As to one fellow familiar with the cases, "it's better to recognize them as Filipinos since they have represented the country already and it would be a shame to expose our dirty laundry to the world and be branded as cheats"




i dont know why we are so hard with this players who has risk their life and limbs in international games carrying the flags of the Philippines when we cannot even deport alien Graham Lim

thadzonline
11-09-2008, 09:59 AM
its simple, because the circumstances by which they were granted citizenship still teems with questions. UNless, these questions are put to rest, then the case rests.

Ang kaibahan lang kay Graham ay magagaling sila maglaro, siguro kung si Graham kasing galing din ni Alapag maglaro, malamang, we wont also be too hard on him? Kidding aside, parang ganito nga ang nagiging mentality natin.

And now what is this I hear many "fil-fors" are begging off from the NT for reasons na mababaw

thadzonline
11-09-2008, 10:01 AM
^marrying a Filipina does not make one a natural-born Filipino..as to the Seigle case, my apologies if I have been too hard but there have been rumors before that technicalities made Andy a legit Philippine citizen while the same does not go for Danny..


It was Andy who was questioned, not Danny, according to this article:
http://www.newsflash.org/2003/05/sp/sp002773.htm




actually na question rin yung kay Seigle pero nirefer kaagad sa case ni Andy and he was granted citizenship. But the circumstances surrounding his case actualy point out that his mother was no longer a Filipino citizen at the time of his birth

insulares
11-09-2008, 05:08 PM
And now what is this I hear many "fil-fors" are begging off from the NT for reasons na mababaw



"Mababaw" is in the eye of the beholder, but my understanding is that "Fil-fors" have the same right to decline NT service as "full Fils".* That said, "Fil-fors" who exercise this right better be ready for the intense scrutiny of full-blooded basketball pundits.

thadzonline
11-09-2008, 05:54 PM
na relay lang naman insulares, but if yung rason is something like id prefer a vacation first, then perhaps baka pera lang talaga pinunta dito sa Pinas

insulares
11-10-2008, 02:11 PM
na relay lang naman insulares, but if yung rason is something like id prefer a vacation first, then perhaps baka pera lang talaga pinunta dito sa Pinas


I understand your point Thadz.* Ako man masama loob ko when someone excuses himself from NT duty.* But the fact remains that NT involvement is voluntary, and the individual has the final say.* Things would be different if we had an autocratic state-run federation like China's which strips an individual's right to make a personal decision.

It's funny you should mention the "vacation first" excuse, because I remember Kelly Williams mentioning this just before the 2007 Fiba-Asia qualifiers.* Napagod daw siya at gustong bumalik sa Tate para mag-bakasyon muna.* Personally I felt it was his right (he worked his tail off for SLR in the just-concluded PBA conference).* I felt much better after he relented when then commissioner Eala prevailed upon him to reconsider (public pressure also helped).* He went on to make a good account of himself and even scored the winning free throws against China Team B.

Let's face it.* Fil-foreigners come to the Philippines to make money for themselves and their own families.* It's the same motivation that drives the rest of us to pursue jobs here and abroad.* Any decision of theirs to also take part in a "selfless" pursuit (like NT chores) should be viewed by us as a bonus and not a given.

I also agree with you that the cirumstances by which some Fil-fors have been granted citizenship still teems with questions, but the hard reality is that the DOJ (our government) has given them legal status.* Thus the Philippine Constitution also shines upon them.* So it's not really a case of fans not caring that RP "does a Qatar".* I feel it's just a case of 'the law has spoken' and some fans have simply decided to move on.

Personally, I find it more controversial that a bigger entity such as the PBA can unilaterally decide to decline NT duty.* Individual pro players thus do not have a say in this situation since the big bosses of the PBA Board of Governors have spoken for them.* I can understand individual players (whether half or full-breed) declining NT duty because their families have so much to lose if something bad happens to the player(s).* But the post-Eala PBA dreads NT involvement because they are afraid of financial losses, even though the PBA is in a position to recoup any losses later on.

thadzonline
11-10-2008, 02:39 PM
I just find it funny how our officials have actually circumvented our very own citizenship laws to accommodate shams, much like Qatar adopting those Kenyans and take them in as natural-born citizens. That's just like what we are doing, DOJ circumventing Philippine citizenship laws to accommodate those who are no longer technically qualified to be citizens and to some extent, even those who cannot even establish their Philippine ancestry. So much so with a state-sponsored scam. Nagmukha ngang gago ang mga senators who investigated the issue before and made the necessary recommendations.

insulares
11-11-2008, 03:54 AM
Yeah, I remember Sen. Barbers with all his bluster and bravado against the so-called "Fil-Shams".* It's the loudest lip service I've heard after the fact.* And where are all those passionate former NT players who lobbied for Barbers' support against non-homegrown talent?* Alvin Patrimonio? Jojo Lastimosa?* Marlou Aquino?* Kenneth Duremdes?* Why are they so quiet now?

If Alvin and Jolas were so nervous about "half-breeds" invading our basketball shores, surely they must feel scandalized by the potential "no-breeds" that Guiao wants to fast-track into the NT (to be fair, the SBP is also batting for naturalized players albeit with greater study and deliberation).* Have Jolas and Alvin become such contented cows in their plushy PBA managerial positions that they've developed selective amnesia?* Maybe so.* No better way to attain job security than to toe the PBA's party line.* Come to think of it, player Marlou Aquino became a contented cow way before the Fil-Am invasion ;D,* while Duremdes is now ironically coaching an alleged "Fil-sham" he used to oppose.

And what about Guiao, who says coaching the NT is the "singular greatest honor" that a Filipino coach can aspire for?* Well, isn't playing for the NT the singular greatest honor that a Filipino player can aspire for?* In which case, why rob those Filipinos (including genuine Fil-fors) of an honor by suggesting that we quickly acquire a naturalized stranger and another one to act as a naturalized spare tire for the Philippine Band Aid (PBA) Team.* Talk about double-standard for "nationalism"!!

thadzonline
11-11-2008, 10:18 AM
The thing is we can already consider the likes of Danny Seigle, Asi Taulava, Gabe Norwood, among many others as naturalized Filipinos, so careful deliberation should also mean sorting out which Fil-fors are genuine natural-born citizens and which ones are considered naturalized ala Chris Kaman of Germany who had German grandparents but considered a naturalized citizen

MaD CoW
11-11-2008, 07:23 PM
I would like to take exception to being branded as a fan who doesn't care.* I am of the position that we should be open to getting capable foreign ballers naturalized to help our cause, but I don't think that qualifies me as being apathetic.* Sometimes, we need to sit down and analyze what we can do to make whatever situation we are in better.* In this case, I think that our obvious lack of size against international competition has pushed Yeng Guiao to take this course of action.* Heck, if world powerhouse USA reinforced their team with "The Dream", why can't a struggling program like ours do the same?* Turning our sights away from basketball, I once heard of a Fil-Am/Filipina swimmer winning a gold medal in the Olympics.* Sadly, she was a US citizen so we are still in quest of our own first Olympic gold. The Philippines got the raw end of the deal in that situation, I think it's high time we benefit from a similar situation.

Getting naturalized competition for our locals may even push them to improve their own games so that they may not be bumped off.* And as I heard, we will be getting a maximum of two reinforcements.* As long as the country will not be violating rules set by FIBA, I see no compelling reason why we shouldn't take this course.

thadzonline
11-11-2008, 09:20 PM
That is allowed Mad Cow, but that is beside the point.

The point I am making is about foreigners being made to pass up as locals(natural-born citizens) even when they should be considered naturalized players

typhoidterry
11-12-2008, 01:24 PM
This situation is not only happening in the Men's division. There is a plan to naturalize a 6'4" chinese cager, they are getting her prepared for the next SEA Games.

I really don't understand the plans of Haydee Ong. Why get a foreigner when they beat the top women's division team Thailand last year. Even if they lost in the championship, the whole country witnessed that the Thais can be beaten. According to some people close to the staff, She tries to justify the decision to naturalize the chinese by saying "everyone is doing it anyway". It is obvious with this statement that her program was not meant to cover a long term program. Win at all cost to keep her job. By resorting to short cut and band aid solutions, Haydee Ong has pierced a stake in the heart of this countries women's basketball program.

It is obvious that she has little knowledge in running a long term program. By justifying her decision to naturalize player, she has shown her true color. A Trapo in a sports setting, a true remnant of the old BAP. This is what she brings to the table.

chinito_guy
11-12-2008, 01:53 PM
I agree to most of the points mentioned here, but in my opinion, as with the trend now in basketball we really need all the help we can get. As stated by Guiao in the recent news articles, his intention to get a naturalized 7 footer to start in the NT's center position is to boost our chance in the upcoming international competitions, I think this move has a lot of benefits.

Other countries have already done it, FIBA encourage it, so why do pinoys can't get the idea that these things are* there to create a balance competition. Hey! the USA has a lot of athletes which are not pure Americans* :o but that is besides basketball. The world of basketball is evolving, if it offers us a good strategy that will give us a fighting chance why not grab it?

By the way i am replying to this line


And what about Guiao, who says coaching the NT is the "singular greatest honor" that a Filipino coach can aspire for?* Well, isn't playing for the NT the singular greatest honor that a Filipino player can aspire for?* In which case, why rob those Filipinos (including genuine Fil-fors) of an honor by suggesting that we quickly acquire a naturalized stranger and another one to act as a naturalized spare tire for the Philippine Band Aid (PBA) Team.* Talk about double-standard for "nationalism"!!

thadzonline
11-12-2008, 02:29 PM
This thread is not about naturalization of a player for the national team, since that is allowed under FIBA rules, I don't oppose getting at least 1 naturalized guy to help the cause.

What I am opposed to is the very fact that we already have not one but many naturalized players playing in the PBA and which passed up as natural-born Filipinos.

How many of them were members of the RP team in Tokushima or even the Busan Asiad? That in itself is cheating

insulares
11-12-2008, 03:08 PM
By the way i am replying to this line


And what about Guiao, who says coaching the NT is the "singular greatest honor" that a Filipino coach can aspire for?* Well, isn't playing for the NT the singular greatest honor that a Filipino player can aspire for?* In which case, why rob those Filipinos (including genuine Fil-fors) of an honor by suggesting that we quickly acquire a naturalized stranger and another one to act as a naturalized spare tire for the Philippine Band Aid (PBA) Team.* Talk about double-standard for "nationalism"!!


Chinito guy,

Contrary to what you may think, I am for naturalizing a talented shotblocker and rebounder.* But I am clearly not for immediate wholesale naturalization as Guiao initially suggested.* And definitely I am not impressed by Guiao's double-standard statements.* That sentence I mentioned regarding robbing Filipino players of an honor was juxtaposed with Guiao's protectionist and selfish coaching statement to emphasize a point.* My apologies if my statement was misconstrued as anti-naturalization because nothing can be farther from the truth.* I strongly believe acquiring a naturalized player will elevate the level of play of the NT.

chinito_guy
11-13-2008, 10:10 AM
By the way i am replying to this line


And what about Guiao, who says coaching the NT is the "singular greatest honor" that a Filipino coach can aspire for?* Well, isn't playing for the NT the singular greatest honor that a Filipino player can aspire for?* In which case, why rob those Filipinos (including genuine Fil-fors) of an honor by suggesting that we quickly acquire a naturalized stranger and another one to act as a naturalized spare tire for the Philippine Band Aid (PBA) Team.* Talk about double-standard for "nationalism"!!


Chinito guy,

Contrary to what you may think, I am for naturalizing a talented shotblocker and rebounder.* But I am clearly not for immediate wholesale naturalization as Guiao initially suggested.* And definitely I am not impressed by Guiao's double-standard statements.* That sentence I mentioned regarding robbing Filipino players of an honor was juxtaposed with Guiao's protectionist and selfish coaching statement to emphasize a point.* My apologies if my statement was misconstrued as anti-naturalization because nothing can be farther from the truth.* I strongly believe acquiring a naturalized player will elevate the level of play of the NT.


Point accepted sir, and there's really no need for apologies. ;)

john_paul_manahan
11-15-2008, 12:35 AM
maybe you do not technically need to naturalize.

all you need is a local passport (tama ba?).

i think i am referring to the jr holden / becky hammon situation in russia.

Regular Grey
11-15-2008, 07:17 AM
I'm all for Naturalized Cagers. Basta ba makaka tulong ng malaki. Even the US of A, kahit sila na ang pinaka malakas na basketball team, pinayagan pa rin nila si Hakeem Olajawon na maglaro sa kanilang national team.

The_Big_Cat
11-15-2008, 09:06 AM
Hindi naman siguro "nanakawan" ang mga local players ng naturalized players dahil sa international competitions lang papayagan ang naturalized players as of now.

It is the trend right now and FIBA allows that.

Russia won the 2007 EUROBASKET with American-born JR Holden as their starting point guard. Lebanon did it with American-born Joe Vogel placing 2nd in the 2005 FIBA-Asia Championships. The United States won the Gold in the 1996 Atlanta Olympics with Nigerian-born Hakeem Olajuwon. Ang Germany nga, they naturalized Chris Kaman, whose great grandparents are German-born.

The contention of Yeng Guiao is to at least get 2nd or 3rd place in the 2009 FIBA-Asia Championships dahil imposibleng mapatumba ang China with 7'6" Yao Ming, 7'1" Wang Zhi Zhi, 6'7" Sun Yue and the returning 7'1" Bateer.

I am for naturalizing. Kung ako ang masusunod, 7 footer with excellent defensive skills (shot blocking & rebounding) at sa opensa dapat may simpleng medium range jumper. The offense will be taken for by our locals.

thadzonline
11-15-2008, 11:26 AM
maybe you do not technically need to naturalize.

all you need is a local passport (tama ba?).

i think i am referring to the jr holden / becky hammon situation in russia.


and just how many cases like that do we have now? Asi Taulava? Alex Crisano? Danny Seigle? Rafi Reavis? Dorian Peña? Mick Pennisi?

Thats what we did at the height of the influx of supposed Fil-ams who we later found out to have not qualified as natural-born players in the 1st place. That means only 1 of them should be allowed to play in the RPYT otherwise more than 1 of them constitutes cheating already