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salsa caballero
09-29-2010, 11:36 AM
^ I hear you Pio. Unfortunately, knowing the power of the media in this country, we are all aware of how difficult it is to "manage expectations". We are not (yet) a country of whiners. BUT, we do have a bunch of pseudo-'sports columnists' who act like it.

On the other hand, the reality is Gilas is also a PR effort on the part of its corporate bankrollers, so public perception definitely is a consideration. (It also doesn't help that some BAP supporters are obsessed with getting the reins and FIBA recognition back.) Thankless efforts on the surface, no?

Schortsanitis
09-29-2010, 05:07 PM
jembengzon and gameface_one,

I do not have any patience or respect for idiots like him. The fact that he is getting petty and asking me to be banned proves that my comments about him have been right all along.

I stand by my posts.


Well, what can I say? Somebody's asking for it.

Mods, I hope you can accommodate his request. LOL

Schortsanitis
09-29-2010, 05:10 PM
Simple logic: We've been playing the sport for about a century, never had to hire 10 coaches and have a decade of a national program, and we were winning before.

When the taller teams, who have not been playing the sport as long started beating us, suddenly we need 10 coaches, and a decade-long basketball program?

Analyse.

Logic.

LOL

rabbaddal
09-29-2010, 10:11 PM
Nobody is gonna bend over for somebody who can't think beyond elementary school (like knowing what a decade is). Tough luck for you. ;)

rabbaddal
09-29-2010, 10:21 PM
^I think it all boils down to managing expectations. If the SBP is really committed to this program, then they should bite the bullet and go long term without PBA help. It took Iran more than three years to become a contender, same with Lebanon. To hell with what the public wants.

Ang nangyayari kasi, puro stop-gap solutions. If the Philippines does qualify for the 2012 Olympics, but with PBA help, then we're back in the same vicious cycle, that is, relying on the PBA for help. I say if they're gonna stick with running a developmental pool free of PBA reinforcements, then stick with it and take a leap of faith. But if they're gonna get the PBA's help, then let the PBA run the national team again. It's hard on the PBA teams who have to suddenly loan their players.



^ I hear you Pio. Unfortunately, knowing the power of the media in this country, we are all aware of how difficult it is to "manage expectations". We are not (yet) a country of whiners. BUT, we do have a bunch of pseudo-'sports columnists' who act like it.

On the other hand, the reality is Gilas is also a PR effort on the part of its corporate bankrollers, so public perception definitely is a consideration. (It also doesn't help that some BAP supporters are obsessed with getting the reins and FIBA recognition back.) Thankless efforts on the surface, no?


Which is why the Philippines works at a disadvantage when it comes to sports that require a concerted effort (an alien concept to some small minded people here in this thread who say it's all about height). It requires making tough choices on how scarce resources will be allocated and when.

Iran and China do not give a hoot about what the public thinks, so they can execute their priorities better. Iran specifically ran their program for about 20 years before they started contending for the Asian title. In Korea and Japan, basketball isn’t the most popular sport so the public doesn’t really care as much what their sports officials do.

But overall, I think the SBP has done a good job so far, especially when compared to the BAP days. It’s just that they could have done it better and achieved better sustainable results sooner. Reinforcing the team with PBA players now will only push back the development of younger players that have more potential but the good side is that it’s limited to 3 players only.

Schortsanitis
10-03-2010, 01:51 PM
Yes, it's not about height. All we need are nine more foreign coaches, and another decade to win in serious Asian basketball competitions, despite the fact we've been playing the sport for about a century now. LOL

Some fans are so obsessed with Gilas, they keep using stupid excuses, expecting other people are dumb enough to believe such moronic excuses. I wonder why. LOL

rabbaddal
10-04-2010, 07:22 AM
Some very slow people here need to be reminded of simple truths. The Philippines does not plan to hire nine foreign coaches to qualify for the Olympics. OK, they can call it "sarcasm" again. :D

pio_valenz
10-04-2010, 11:25 AM
Guys, this is getting old. Nakakawalang-gana magpost. Ang sarap pa naman sanang pag-usapan ito.

salsa caballero
10-04-2010, 11:34 AM
Plus One. You guys promised to cut it out, right?

Anyhow, back to topic. I think what Coach Rajko is bringing to the table is a paradigm shift with the way our national squad plays and understands basketball. On that note, I think there is no argument. We have also seen how a well-played and understood system of play reaps dividends vis-a-vis otherwise more gifted players playing "streetball".
For reference see the three previous world championships prior to this one.

More importantly, for us Pinoys, we have also seen how a relatively smaller team practicing, playing and executing within a defined system can reap basketball success. (See the 2002(?) world championships where Argentina emerged victorious despite not having a single player taller than 6-8.) The take-aways then were teamwork, practice,defense,rebounding, ft's and outside shooting.

Joescoundrel
10-04-2010, 01:01 PM
Perhaps something should be cleared up first. I for one am getting confused. When this whole Smart Gilas thing began about two and half years ago, the SBP said they would put together a pool of the most talented local college-age players who would then be given the time and the training to develop together as a team.

Then over the last year or so, Rajko Toroman starts going after Fil-foreigners like Chris Lutz and Marcio Lassiter, and then asks the PBA to lend him Asi Taulava and Kelly Williams and lately even Chris Ross. What ever became of the straight-up developmental approach that was supposed to be the fundamental principle behind this whole deal?

If we were going to out and out bring in PBA veterans and Fil-foreigners who cannot even stay fulltime with the team, what development of the Gilas team are we working on? Let's not even get started with why we're settling for a guy like that Marcus Douthit fellow as our cadidate for naturalization.

clutchjedi
10-04-2010, 02:21 PM
More importantly, for us Pinoys, we have also seen how a relatively smaller team practicing, playing and executing within a defined system can reap basketball success. (See the 2002(?) world championships where Argentina emerged victorious despite not having a single player taller than 6-8.) The take-aways then were teamwork, practice,defense,rebounding, ft's and outside shooting.


Argentina beat the US in 2002 but lost in the controversial final game to Serbia (Argentina did win Olymic gold 2 years later). They had no 7-fters in the rotation, their core big men were 6-10 Oberto and 6-9 Scola.

But yes, they show how team play and efficiency could beat a bigger, stronger and more athletic team (to a certain extent, as a fully-prepared USA crushed them in Beijing.)

Angola is also interesting - in the recent worlds, their starting center Joaquin Gomes is only 6-8 / 225 lbs, with other forwards also 6-6 to 6-8 only. Yet they play competitively and even beat Germany.

It seems we could build an RP team of pretty much the same height as theirs. I wonder though if training will be enough for us to reach their level, or are we forever at a disadvantage due to hereditary/genetic/racial factors?

pio_valenz
10-04-2010, 02:44 PM
For me, it's not just about height. There's also quickness and athleticism. A six-six Argentinian or Angolan will almost always be quicker and more athletic than a six-six Pinoy. There's also our grassroots program and how we develop our young players. In many successful basketball countries, most especially in Europe, all players go through the same shooting and dribbling drills at a very young age regardless of their position, which explains why teams like Spain, Serbia, and Greece can put five players on the floor at the same time who can shoot from any spot or dribble out of trouble easily.

I think the oen thing we should work on is shooting. Gawing asintado lahat ng players natin. Also, and this may sound a little offbeat, work on kontra tiempo shots, those off-rhythm, awkward shots that are hard to block. Joe Lipa actually teaches this regularly in his many coaching clinics. He firmly believes it's a good way to offset China's height advantage.

salsa caballero
10-04-2010, 02:59 PM
^ no argument there. as I said, what we need is a paradigm shift that coach rajko seems to be bringing to the table. versatility in playing positions seems to be key. no more pigeonholing the big dude as a post player, in other words.

the contra-tiempo input is well taken. I think someone like Mac Cardona, akward shot and all, would be useful if somehow integrated into the new system.

yungha
10-04-2010, 03:12 PM
the team that had no 6-8 above player was greece. but their center was like a 6-8 battering ram. agree on kontra-tiempo shots, wrong foot layup takeoffs, etc. guys like ginobili are successful in the NBA because yun nga, kontra-tiempo ang laro. minsan palayo sa ring yung layup. if there's a type of player that can master this style, it's the crafty pinoy.

salsa caballero
10-04-2010, 03:43 PM
Greece nga ba? Thanks pards.

Actually, a perfect example of contra tiempo ball is Skorea's style. See how they take off seemingly wrong-footed, and yet get the bucket anyways. Yes, we need to look beyond our shores for what's out there. We are pretty good, doubtless, but the other countries play ball too. And there's much to learn. Coach Rajko's program is a step in the right direction.

In answer to Joe's query, as mentioned previously, there seems to be a clamor for results as early as now. I definitely hear where you're coming from re: the continuity and long-term aspects, but it appears marami pa rin ang mainipin. Isama mo na sa listahan si Manolo Inigo...

Schortsanitis
10-07-2010, 02:27 PM
I'm sorry, but the way I see it, Angola and Argentina are the exception, rather than the rule.

Besides, I think both of those teams are still way taller than us, especially when it comes to the backcourt.

Also, in the case of Argentina, even though they do not have a very tall line up, what they do have is a large pool of tall players. Even if their starting National Team Center is only 6'10, they have a large pool of players from which to choose from, meaning they end up getting the best of the best available big men.

Contrast that in the Philippines, where there are only 2 players 6'9" and above playing actively in college right now (Fajardo and Slaughter).

augustine
10-08-2010, 08:03 AM
Perhaps something should be cleared up first. I for one am getting confused. When this whole Smart Gilas thing began about two and half years ago, the SBP said they would put together a pool of the most talented local college-age players who would then be given the time and the training to develop together as a team.

Then over the last year or so, Rajko Toroman starts going after Fil-foreigners like Chris Lutz and Marcio Lassiter, and then asks the PBA to lend him Asi Taulava and Kelly Williams and lately even Chris Ross. What ever became of the straight-up developmental approach that was supposed to be the fundamental principle behind this whole deal?

If we were going to out and out bring in PBA veterans and Fil-foreigners who cannot even stay fulltime with the team, what development of the Gilas team are we working on? Let's not even get started with why we're settling for a guy like that Marcus Douthit fellow as our cadidate for naturalization.


Some of the early choices turned out to be duds, at least for purposes of international ball. Cawaling for one. Magi Sison for another. Rabeh was uncommitted. Magi and Ryan were always projects. So they had to complement the lineup with experienced players that could make the team more competitive immediately. Specifically, fil-foreigners like asi, kwill, sol give the size and athleticism we need.

Jeep
10-08-2010, 04:03 PM
Perhaps something should be cleared up first. I for one am getting confused. When this whole Smart Gilas thing began about two and half years ago, the SBP said they would put together a pool of the most talented local college-age players who would then be given the time and the training to develop together as a team.

Then over the last year or so, Rajko Toroman starts going after Fil-foreigners like Chris Lutz and Marcio Lassiter, and then asks the PBA to lend him Asi Taulava and Kelly Williams and lately even Chris Ross. What ever became of the straight-up developmental approach that was supposed to be the fundamental principle behind this whole deal?

If we were going to out and out bring in PBA veterans and Fil-foreigners who cannot even stay fulltime with the team, what development of the Gilas team are we working on? Let's not even get started with why we're settling for a guy like that Marcus Douthit fellow as our cadidate for naturalization.


Some of the early choices turned out to be duds, at least for purposes of international ball. Cawaling for one. Magi Sison for another. Rabeh was uncommitted. Magi and Ryan were always projects. So they had to complement the lineup with experienced players that could make the team more competitive immediately. Specifically, fil-foreigners like asi, kwill, sol give the size and athleticism we need.


makikisali lang. if so, what are the prospects of asi, kelly williams, chris ross, and whoever in the near future coach toroman decides he'll need from the pros? from the points mentioned (i.e., that the long-term plan was to develop college greats into this team that hopefully gives us a shot at london in 2012 -- yun ang nabanggit na objective di ba?), it's clear that this group should gell into a fighting unit, and that takes time and all the opportunities for local and international competition to season them for the regional eliminations and the qualifying rounds.

how is that coming along?

rabbaddal
10-09-2010, 10:46 AM
Plus One. You guys promised to cut it out, right?

Anyhow, back to topic. I think what Coach Rajko is bringing to the table is a paradigm shift with the way our national squad plays and understands basketball. On that note, I think there is no argument. We have also seen how a well-played and understood system of play reaps dividends vis-a-vis otherwise more gifted players playing "streetball".
For reference see the three previous world championships prior to this one.

More importantly, for us Pinoys, we have also seen how a relatively smaller team practicing, playing and executing within a defined system can reap basketball success. (See the 2002(?) world championships where Argentina emerged victorious despite not having a single player taller than 6-8.) The take-aways then were teamwork, practice,defense,rebounding, ft's and outside shooting.




the team that had no 6-8 above player was greece. but their center was like a 6-8 battering ram. agree on kontra-tiempo shots, wrong foot layup takeoffs, etc. guys like ginobili are successful in the NBA because yun nga, kontra-tiempo ang laro. minsan palayo sa ring yung layup. if there's a type of player that can master this style, it's the crafty pinoy.


I promised nothing. Besides, it's fun to point out a few occasional dumb and pathetic posters who talk without knowing the facts and run to the mods when they're pwned, just like in PEX. ;D

On the matter of height, it is not totally out of the equation for Smart Gilas. There are tools that FIBA countries can resort to in order to bridge the height gap, like naturalization and recruiting emigrants. Under Toroman's strategy for Smart Gilas, he needs one solid 7-foot center to man the slot and a 6'8/6'9 PF who can slide from the perimeter to the interior. That's been taken care of with the naturalization of Douthit and the reinforcement of Williams (backed by Japeth). The other positions will be manned by 6'1 to 6'3 guards, so the system they have will be something like Korea + 2. Toroman could've chosen a much team if he wanted to, but it would come at the expense of smaller locals like Tiu and Casio. That's enough height to qualify for the Olympics. The real missing ingredients are fundamentals (they still miss free throws), cohesion, and familiarity with their opponents, which is the point of playing as many international games as possible. The other item that needs to be fixed is logistics. It seems like the SBP admins are prone to making one blunder after another.

rabbaddal
10-09-2010, 10:57 AM
I think the oen thing we should work on is shooting. Gawing asintado lahat ng players natin. Also, and this may sound a little offbeat, work on kontra tiempo shots, those off-rhythm, awkward shots that are hard to block. Joe Lipa actually teaches this regularly in his many coaching clinics. He firmly believes it's a good way to offset China's height advantage.


Impeccable shooting is a must-have (along with setting the right picks play-in-play-out), but this takes time to develop especially with players who are used to playing the isolation. Hur Jae and Rony Fahed use consistent and accurate shooting to cut down taller defenders. It's doable with a focused program. Back in the 80s, Chip Engelland taught Caidic, Al Solis, Naning Valenciano and Elmer Reyes how to shoot accurately. It can be done again with Baracael, Tiu and Ababou. Much more work needs to be done before they can reach the level of Caidic though. They missed a lot of wide-open 3-pt shots in the Stankovic Cup game vs. Qatar. Had they made those shots, they would've won.

rabbaddal
10-09-2010, 11:04 AM
Some of the early choices turned out to be duds, at least for purposes of international ball. Cawaling for one. Magi Sison for another. Rabeh was uncommitted. Magi and Ryan were always projects. So they had to complement the lineup with experienced players that could make the team more competitive immediately. Specifically, fil-foreigners like asi, kwill, sol give the size and athleticism we need.



No regrets with Magi, even if he gets cut eventually. The more taller players with better fundamentals the country has playing in its leagues, the more it encourages younger, better players to follow in their footsteps. Let's see how Cawaling turns out, though he can easily be replaced. Fil-fors will have to be recruited selectively, with priority being given to those who are good at playing with picks, have decent outside shooting, good sense of team hustle and can play different positions, just like Lassiter.

Schortsanitis
10-09-2010, 05:56 PM
Plus One. You guys promised to cut it out, right?


Hey, I've already cut it out, and yet some moron who fancies himself as a basketball genius still insists on being an as_hole. LOL

Schortsanitis
10-09-2010, 05:57 PM
I find it funny, that the SBP takes time to hire the best international coach available, spends a lot of money to naturalize imports and send the team to international competitions, and yet some "feeling" basketball genius still insists on blaming them if the team doesn't deliver. LOL

rabbaddal
10-09-2010, 07:43 PM
Spending money and talent are not enough. That’s what the Greeks learned whenever they fumbled in FIBA in the past. Good executive decisions and accountability count also. People who are well educated and who've run teams and organizations know that very well.

rabbaddal
10-09-2010, 08:41 PM
if there's a type of player that can master this style, it's the crafty pinoy.


In the old days, Pinoys had a firm grasp of these skills. Ed Ocampo, Caloy Loyzaga, Robert Jaworski, Bogs Adornado, Ramon Fernandez and Abet Guidaben could all make off balanced shots, play with picks, pass well and play good offense and defense across different positions. Three decades of not preparing for and playing high level international games choked that off. The Philippines had a renaissance of sorts with the NCC program that produced well-rounded and well-sounded players like Dignadice, Patrimonio, Caidic, Calma, Jarencio and Elmer Reyes. They won in Asia even at the time when China had a tremendous hight advantage over them. There's no reason why it can't be done again.

reamily
10-10-2010, 01:37 PM
lol it kills when we thought we are the only ones playing this sport :( for the logest time and we thought that we are best undersized team so much to beliee in your own that we never recoverd.

reamily
10-10-2010, 01:39 PM
accpeting the hard truth hurts but it will set you free to do the next step and not only looking on our past

rabbaddal
10-10-2010, 10:11 PM
/\/\

Accept this hard truth. NCC became Asian champions after 15 years of Chinese and Korean domination. The past tells you a lot about how a successful basketball program works.

oca
10-11-2010, 12:30 AM
The success of the NCC program was primarily due to the fact that it held and kept together a group of players over a long period of time.

That's not an opinion, you just have to list what that team had and compare it with the NTs that came after them.

It had 3 naturalized players, but was allowed to utilized only 2 for the ABC Championships. Jacobs decided to list Still and Moore primarily for their defense and rebounding abilities. That's what is being addressed in the current Smart Gilas program.

Will having a European coach make any difference?

Imo, no.

Sensible coaching is what is needed and this is a trait not exclusive to a group of coaches from a specific part of the world.

What is sensible coaching?

Imo, it is one that can develop a team that dribbles less, can consistently convert from the perimeter and be competitive in the rebounding department.

Now, do you need an American or European coach for that?

European coaching became a fad after teams from Europe won the Olympics and World Championships. Now that the USA has regained its pre-eminent stature with a full-time collegiate coach, will the people behind SBP look for an American collegiate coach at the end of Toroman's tenure?

But one thing is over looked in the discussion here, is it clear to everyone how is success defined under the Smart-Gilas program?

With NCC, regaining Asian supremacy was its goal.

With Smart- Gilas, ano? --- Qualifying to the 2012 Olympics!

NAPAKALAKING PAGKAKAIBA!

Walang pakialam itong programang ito kung talunin sila ng mga Tsino at Arabo--- basta makuha nila ang isang spot sa London! Here, luck of the draw can be a factor and losing the Asian gold is acceptable for being a finalist earns the program a ticket to 2012.

The discussion needs to be guided by this fact.

Btw, this coming Asian Games is not the qualifier for the 2012 Olympics.

rabbaddal
10-11-2010, 05:11 AM
I'll take the Olympic qualifiers as an achievement, if only to make the legions of useless "stakeholders" shut up. The only way you can get to the point of dominating Asia as well as having your players noticed by Euro league scouts is by playing against the best in the world, and that means qualifying for the big world-level tournaments first.

As for the coach, it's not about the nationality. It's about getting somebody who has mastered the FIBA approach of "sensible coaching", just to use your terminology. It doesn't matter if it's an American or European. Lebanon, for one, has an American coach but he still uses FIBA tactics.

How many Filipino coaches today have a track record of using FIBA tactics and developing the talent that can flourish with those tactics? Joe Lipa and the Dandans, maybe. But they have long been marginal participants in the basketball scene and haven't used "sensible coaching" in high-level competitive tournaments. Toroman, on the other hand, was the assistant coach of the Yugo national team, Yugo junior team coach and has coached Euro club teams and national teams. The difference in track record is obvious. Picking any coach from the PBA won't do since in many Asian Games past, they've reverted to their comfort zones of using isolation plays.

oca
10-11-2010, 08:53 AM
We can make it to the Olympics, but just 2nd best in Asia.

I don't think that is acceptable. More so if there will be a wild card tournament for 2012-- di ka una, di ka segunda pero pwede ka pang makasali sa 2012.

There lies the problem in this discussion--- we are sharing our thoughts, arguing and pressing on an issue but standing on different platforms.

Pwedeng talunan ka sa Asia, basta makapunta ka sa Olympics -- success na?

Ano naman ang definition ng success para sa NT natin pag nandun na sa London?--- Just being there and participating in the spirit of brotherhood and unity among nations?

Para sa akin, mali ang gawing batayan ng tagumpay ang pag-qualify sa Olympics-- dahil kahit talunan ka sa Asia - segunda o wild card entry --- pwede kang makasali.

I would like to hear Smart-Gilas say in no uncertain terms it aims to be NUMERO UNO is Asia!

Schortsanitis
10-11-2010, 09:09 AM
Ah ... The Northern Consolidated Cement team. That team that had not one, not two, but three, yes, three imports. Or, if you want to be polite about it, "naturalized players".

I don't know whatever happened to Dennis Still, but I do know that Jeff Moore eventually became known as the "Michael Jordan of Mexico" after his NCC days were over. Conversely, you probably can also call Michael Jordan as the "Jeff Moore of the United States". LOL

As for Chip Engelland, he eventually became a shooting coach for some NBA teams. No small feat, I might say.

rabbaddal
10-11-2010, 10:19 AM
Pwedeng talunan ka sa Asia, basta makapunta ka sa Olympics -- success na?

Ano naman ang definition ng success para sa NT natin pag nandun na sa London?--- Just being there and participating in the spirit of brotherhood and unity among nations?

Para sa akin, mali ang gawing batayan ng tagumpay ang pag-qualify sa Olympics-- dahil kahit talunan ka sa Asia - segunda o wild card entry --- pwede kang makasali.

I would like to hear Smart-Gilas say in no uncertain terms it aims to be NUMERO UNO is Asia!


As of this point, there is only one slot allocated to an Asian country to qualify for the 2012 Olympics, and that will go to the Asian champion. Maybe FIBA might open the field to more Asian countries, but nothing is on the table so far. So when Gilas said its aim is to qualify for 2012, it also aimed to be the champion.

And besides, NCC didn't win right away. They were only 9th in the 1983 ABC and 4th in 1981. It took them 4 years before they won their first Asian men's title. So by your definition, NCC was "talunan" at least at the onset. But most people considered them a success only after the fact.

rabbaddal
10-11-2010, 10:41 AM
So what do we call Joe Vogel, Jackson Vroman and Rashiem Wright? Arabs? Like it or not, imports will be part of the FIBA scene so might as well use this to the Philippines' advantage. The NCC lineup didn't have anyone taller than 6'9. China during the 80s had 7-footers like Shan Tao and Zhang Bin, NBA draftee Sung Tao and NBA tryout invitees Song Ligang and Wang Fei.

MonL
10-11-2010, 11:02 AM
As of this point, there is only one slot allocated to an Asian country to qualify for the 2012 Olympics, and that will go to the Asian champion. Maybe FIBA might open the field to more Asian countries, but nothing is on the table so far. So when Gilas said its aim is to qualify for 2012, it also aimed to be the champion.

And besides, NCC didn't win right away. They were only 9th in the 1983 ABC and 4th in 1981. It took them 4 years before they won their first Asian men's title. So by your definition, NCC was "talunan" at least at the onset. But most people considered them a success only after the fact.


Just a flashback: IIRC, The ABC team in 1981 that finishd fourth in Calcutta was an all-Filipino team led by Frankie Lim, JBYango, among others. What happened to NCC in 1983 was considered a fiasco. Not because they wern't good enough but because they were prevented from being so.

IIRC, NCC fell to 9th in 1983 because other participating countries, particularlly Malaysia, opposed the inclusion of naturalized players Moore, Still and Engelland who were lined up then. Moore and Still actually played in at least one elimination game when their eligibility was questioned and subsequently not recognized. As a result, the games where Moore and Still played were forfeited, and the Philippines was relegated to and topped the consolation round.

I recall news accounts where then BAP Secretary-General Moying Martelino had a heated discussion with the Malaysian representative who boorishly picked a fight and almost came to blows with Moying. That served as inspiration for an all-Filipino team lead by Naning Valenciano to pulverize the Malaysians in their consolation match.

Things fell into place in 1985, and we finally won with Moore and Still in the line up. Too bad it was not an Olympic qualifier.

yungha
10-11-2010, 11:23 AM
if 1985 weren't an olympic qualifier, that means it was a worlds qualifier. did we play in the world basektball championships in 86? o naabutan na ng edsa revolution?

MonL
10-11-2010, 11:27 AM
if 1985 weren't an olympic qualifier, that means it was a worlds qualifier. did we play in the world basektball championships in 86? o naabutan na ng edsa revolution?


Naabutan. The program unraveled and simply disintegrated when Project Director Danding Cojuangco left the country, and the orphaned NCC players turned pro.

yungha
10-11-2010, 11:31 AM
^sayang! we could have played in the worlds pala.

MonL
10-11-2010, 11:46 AM
Part of the program then was for the team to barnstorm and play against different foreign teams in tournaments such as the Jones Cup and be exposed to varying types of competition. They also faced great euroball countries like Yugoslavia where they played against players like the late great Drazen Petrovic.

yungha
10-11-2010, 11:55 AM
As of this point, there is only one slot allocated to an Asian country to qualify for the 2012 Olympics, and that will go to the Asian champion. Maybe FIBA might open the field to more Asian countries, but nothing is on the table so far. So when Gilas said its aim is to qualify for 2012, it also aimed to be the champion.

And besides, NCC didn't win right away. They were only 9th in the 1983 ABC and 4th in 1981. It took them 4 years before they won their first Asian men's title. So by your definition, NCC was "talunan" at least at the onset. But most people considered them a success only after the fact.


correct. to get the olympic berth, we need to win fiba-asia 2011. we couldn't have picked a worst time to pursue our olympic dream. we'd have better chances if the silver and bronze medal winners likewise get olympic berths the same way all 3 podium finishers in this year's fiba-asia under-18 get to compete in the world under-18 championships. as for the olympic quest, if you aim for the stars, at the very least you'll make it to the clouds. i think a semifinal berth would make people happy enough after enduring 9th-11th place finishes the past years.

i think the asian games is a fallback option for the public and major stakeholders. nba and euroleague players will be absent in doha giving us a good fighting chance. in the event gilas' fiba-asia 2011 campaign results in another debacle, say we don't even make it to the semis, we can say the program wasn't a total wash because we did well in the asian games.

after 2012, olympics or not, the pba can study the prospect of the gilas boys bypassing the draft and forming their own pba team much like ncc-san miguel in 1986 and the core of joe lipa's boys heading to purefoods in 1988. that way they'll stay cohesive and the core can play in more future international tourneys, just add 3 or 4 pieces as situation sees fit.

oca
10-11-2010, 12:05 PM
I wonder why SBP is taking the lead in lobbying for 2 slots for Asia in 2012.

Gets niyo?

O baka, guni-guni ko lang yun..... ::)

oca
10-11-2010, 12:35 PM
Regardless how success will be measured in this program, what is paramount is to hold and keep together a good core of players. That core will have to include the naturalized player. Just how loyal the naturalized player will be to the program and the people behind it remains to be seen.

Mel
10-11-2010, 12:52 PM
accdg. to Noli Eala on Twitter today, Cawaling has quit from Gilas to concentrate on FEU. Could Ramos be next.

oca
10-11-2010, 12:57 PM
As of this point, there is only one slot allocated to an Asian country to qualify for the 2012 Olympics, and that will go to the Asian champion. Maybe FIBA might open the field to more Asian countries, but nothing is on the table so far. So when Gilas said its aim is to qualify for 2012, it also aimed to be the champion.

And besides, NCC didn't win right away. They were only 9th in the 1983 ABC and 4th in 1981. It took them 4 years before they won their first Asian men's title. So by your definition, NCC was "talunan" at least at the onset. But most people considered them a success only after the fact.


correct. to get the olympic berth, we need to win fiba-asia 2011. we couldn't have picked a worst time to pursue our olympic dream. we'd have better chances if the silver and bronze medal winners likewise get olympic berths the same way all 3 podium finishers in this year's fiba-asia under-18 get to compete in the world under-18 championships. as for the olympic quest, if you aim for the stars, at the very least you'll make it to the clouds. i think a semifinal berth would make people happy enough after enduring 9th-11th place finishes the past years.

i think the asian games is a fallback option for the public and major stakeholders. nba and euroleague players will be absent in doha giving us a good fighting chance. in the event gilas' fiba-asia 2011 campaign results in another debacle, say we don't even make it to the semis, we can say the program wasn't a total wash because we did well in the asian games.

after 2012, olympics or not, the pba can study the prospect of the gilas boys bypassing the draft and forming their own pba team much like ncc-san miguel in 1986 and the core of joe lipa's boys heading to purefoods in 1988. that way they'll stay cohesive and the core can play in more future international tourneys, just add 3 or 4 pieces as situation sees fit.


That's not the only option available to any aspiring nation. There is also the Qualifying Tournament. In these QT, the 2nd and 3rd placer in FIBA Asia are invited.

Kaya nga di ko gusto ang bukang-bibig ng SBP na Olympic participation ang objective nila. They have given themselves an excuse if they fail to regain the gold in FIBA Asia, as there is a second chance of making the Olympics via the Qualifying Tournament.

oca
10-11-2010, 01:02 PM
accdg. to Noli Eala on Twitter today, Cawaling has quit from Gilas to concentrate on FEU. Could Ramos be next.


If that is true, that's a thinner core they have now than before. But time is still on the side of Smart-Gilas, they still have enough time to prepare for the 2012 Olympics.

rabbaddal
10-15-2010, 11:26 PM
That's not the only option available to any aspiring nation. There is also the Qualifying Tournament. In these QT, the 2nd and 3rd placer in FIBA Asia are invited.

Kaya nga di ko gusto ang bukang-bibig ng SBP na Olympic participation ang objective nila. They have given themselves an excuse if they fail to regain the gold in FIBA Asia, as there is a second chance of making the Olympics via the Qualifying Tournament.


Uhmm...the qualifying tournament is open to all countries in the world level. The 2 or 3 slots will be contested by countries like Slovenia, Brazil, Croatia. If Gilas can get a slot there, than that would make them an even greater team! :D

But the point remains, if you want to dominate Asia, you must compete at the world stage first. Even before Iran started winning, they did everything they oculd to compete against top European teams. If it means the Philippines will have to compete in the Olympics first before dominating Asia, then so be it. If it means we get to the Olympics via wild card or the generosity of FIBA to open slots for the next 2-3 Asian placers (no small feat considering we'd have to beat Lebanon in Beirut!) than so be it again.

But again, with the current format, there seems to be no other way to compete in the 2012 Olympics other than being Asian champions or beating even tougher teams than Iran and China.

rabbaddal
10-15-2010, 11:37 PM
Cawaling's not such a big loss, judging from his UAAP performance. Personally, I'd rather they got Eric Salamat so they can train a backup to Barocca since Casio seems to be having a hard time whenever he's pressured by opponents.

Aldreich Ramos would be a bigger loss if ever he left because there's a need to develop better fundamental skills among the big men. He could be a future Dignadice.

oca
10-16-2010, 12:19 AM
Uhmm...the qualifying tournament is open to all countries in the world level. The 2 or 3 slots will be contested by countries like Slovenia, Brazil, Croatia. If Gilas can get a slot there, than that would make them an even greater team! :D


It is not. Madali lang alamin, a simple online search will give you the answer.



But again, with the current format, there seems to be no other way to compete in the 2012 Olympics other than being Asian champions or beating even tougher teams than Iran and China.


The current format is not the only way to earn a spot in London, a simple online search will give you the answer.

rabbaddal
10-16-2010, 12:34 AM
You mean like this simple online search? ::)

http://www.athens2008.fiba.com/pages/eng/fe/08/olymQual/men/pres/over/p/openNodeIDs/6884/selNodeID/6884/fe_pres_evenOutLin.html

http://www.nba.com/features/olympicqualifying_2008.html

oca
10-16-2010, 12:41 AM
The links doesn't tell why those countries mentioned were invited.

Try again.

oca
10-16-2010, 12:49 AM
rabbaddal,

Let me make one thing clear, I support this team because this is our NT. But this doesn't mean I, or we for that matter, can't be critical of it.

Ang hindi ko gusto ay yung bukang-bibig nilang makasali sa 2012 Olympics. The fact is there is more than one way of making the Olympics. If you fail outright, there will be the qualifier.

Which means, the program can fail in winning FIBA Asia, yet still make it to London. Yun ang nakikitang kong mali.

Categorically, they should say they aim to win the gold in FIBA Asia. Period. A ticket to London becomes a bonus then.

You seem to see things differently, so be it.

rabbaddal
10-16-2010, 01:03 AM
So where's the simple online search you're talking about, if it exists? Read my post again. The Olympic Qualifying Tournament will be a very tough competition so I don't think it counts as an example of the point you're trying to make. At least that's what my simple online search proves.

Everything else you've posted like wild cards and additional exclusive Asian slots is pretty much pie in the sky until FIBA makes a final decision so just wait until after the fact.

As to the philosophy of finding any means to make it to the Olympics (assuming there are), my position still stands to be correct. To beat Iran and China, we must first get used to playing against Serbia and Spain. There's no better substitute than playing at a higher level than your peers.

oca
10-16-2010, 01:43 AM
Hindi mo ba nakikita kung ano nasa kukote ng SBP?

They know winning 1st place in FIBA Asia is not the only way to make it to London. There is the wild card and aside from that they are taking the lead in lobbying for a second outright Asian spot.

This program is not sure they'll win in FIBA-Asia yet it has the temerity of talking about 2012 London. Yan ang issue para sa akin.

Wala akong pakialam sa iba.

rabbaddal
10-19-2010, 12:32 AM
Since the subsequent posts were deleted, I'll point out the obvious. At this point, there is no merit to worries about qualifying via consuelo de bobo. Anything other than being champions of FIBA Asia or placing in the top 3-4 of the Olympic Qualifying tournament is pie in the sky.

Putting another slot in FIBA Asia is pie in the sky. Even if it were done, look what countries we'd have to beat (and under what circumstances) for the Philippines to win even second place. Wild card entry is also pie in the sky and even if it was made available, there is no guarantee it will be given to the Philippines.

And to make it through the OQT means beating out European and South American countries that didn't qualify in their more competitive regional tournaments. These could be countries like Slovenia, Croatia, Brazil and Greece. Well, if it turns out that the Philippines can't beat Iran and China, what are the chances that they will beat Brazil or Croatia? ;)

Based on what is known today, it is only by playing at a very high level of quality that the Philippines can possibly make it to the 2012 Olympics. Anything less will make the effort moot and academic.

AnthonyServinio
11-05-2010, 01:55 AM
Click>> We really hope that FIBA-Asia awards the hosting rights for the 26th Men's Championship next year to the Philippines! (http://servssports.wordpress.com/2010/11/04/undefeated-at-home/) ;)

datu_pula
11-13-2010, 09:10 PM
PH 76 KUWAIT 69.

11-16, 38-37, 57-59, 76-69

lassiter 18, baracael 12, casio 11, tiu 10, taulava 10, williams 9, barroca 3, lutz 2, mercado 1

AnthonyServinio
11-17-2010, 12:13 AM
First game of preliminaries, Group F
Tuesday (November 16)

PILIPINAS 50
IRAN 65

bluegreen
11-17-2010, 07:08 AM
/\/\

The inclusion of PBA players was due to public pressure on SG to deliver instant results. Originally, the goal was simply to reach the Asian Games semis, but eventually it morphed into having to win a medal. So now, RP has to accomplish in 3 years what took more than a decade for Iran and Lebanon to achieve.


That's why Gilas just went back to the old stop gap method of getting PBA Players for the National Team, and adding so-called "Fil-Foreigners" on the line-up due to this win-at-all-costs mentality, short cut system.

We need a long-term developmental program, not this short cut method which is old and outdated already.

Also, part of the program is developing our National Coaches, all the money is spent on players, recruiting and naturalizing them - hogwash.

Jaworski (1990-Silver Medal), Black (1994-Bronze Medal), Cone (1998-4th Place) have all done better than all National Teams put together after their stints as National Coaches. These guys were Filipino or had "roots" already with the Philippines thus practically Pinoy sila, same with most of their players (Jaworski's 1990 Team was All-True-Filipino).

Toroman is here as its a job and nothing else, nothing to do with national pride or anything else - trabaho lang so the passion for the country will never by there. Iba talaga kapag tunay na Pinoy ang lumalaban para sa Bansa!!

Develop our coaches, discover and develop players/athletes (for ALL Sports) and do this very LONG TERM and we will get results - this current system will never work.

bluegreen
11-17-2010, 07:10 AM
First game of preliminaries, Group F
Tuesday (November 16)

PILIPINAS 50
IRAN 65


What will this be called again? Another "learning experience?" :o

Qatar is our next game - Iran was FIBA Asia Defending Champion, Qatar was the 2006 Asian Games Silver Medalist in Basketball (losing to China in the finals).

bydpogi
11-17-2010, 09:48 PM
Philippines just beat Qatar...It was a rout, bugbog ang Qatar. No match yung mga aprikano nila, nagclick ang outside shooting natin

Schortsanitis
11-17-2010, 10:23 PM
From all accounts, this current national team lives, and dies by the outside shot. When our shooters are clicking, this team is hard to beat.

HOWEVER: An outside shot is a low percentage shot, hence you cannot rely on it every game.

That is why teams who live and die by the outside shot alone rarely wins tournaments, where you need to win a number of games, and not just one or two games.

You need to have a balanced offense to win tournaments, meaning offensive presence both inside and out.

But it's still nice to see Gilas win big in international tournaments. I hope to see the day when we finally have international caliber big men (hopefully all local) who will give us that offensive and defensive options underneath the basket consistently.

Kahit Asian level man lang.

rabbaddal
11-18-2010, 01:43 AM
Gilas' dependence on the 3-shot was obvious from the very beginning. Serbian teams really live and die with the outside shot, even when they have the height advantage. They have 6'7 guards who would rather shoot the three than take it strong to the hoop. Same goes for Iran, which is Serbian-coached. The only other option in this system is setting the pick and roll for the center, but even that won't be possible unless the shooters are respected enough to attract resources from the defense. If they're going to go along this path, they just have to learn how to shoot better and more consistently.

rabbaddal
11-18-2010, 01:50 AM
/\/\

The inclusion of PBA players was due to public pressure on SG to deliver instant results. Originally, the goal was simply to reach the Asian Games semis, but eventually it morphed into having to win a medal. So now, RP has to accomplish in 3 years what took more than a decade for Iran and Lebanon to achieve.


That's why Gilas just went back to the old stop gap method of getting PBA Players for the National Team, and adding so-called "Fil-Foreigners" on the line-up due to this win-at-all-costs mentality, short cut system.

We need a long-term developmental program, not this short cut method which is old and outdated already.

Also, part of the program is developing our National Coaches, all the money is spent on players, recruiting and naturalizing them - hogwash.

Jaworski (1990-Silver Medal), Black (1994-Bronze Medal), Cone (1998-4th Place) have all done better than all National Teams put together after their stints as National Coaches. These guys were Filipino or had "roots" already with the Philippines thus practically Pinoy sila, same with most of their players (Jaworski's 1990 Team was All-True-Filipino).

Toroman is here as its a job and nothing else, nothing to do with national pride or anything else - trabaho lang so the passion for the country will never by there. Iba talaga kapag tunay na Pinoy ang lumalaban para sa Bansa!!

Develop our coaches, discover and develop players/athletes (for ALL Sports) and do this very LONG TERM and we will get results - this current system will never work.



Your analogy w/ Jawo and Cone has a flaw though. If you look at the PBA teams' performances, you'll see it has been deteriorating over the years - silver, bronze, 4th place, eliminated. Starting with Jawo's silver in 1990, the Philippines got completely kicked out of contention by 2006. It's obvious that some intervention had to be done.

Suffice to say, SBP has done some things that are counterproductive to long term development. But at least the setup now is much better than when the Philippines used to depend on the PBA.

lekiboy
11-18-2010, 08:44 AM
From all accounts, this current national team lives, and dies by the outside shot. When our shooters are clicking, this team is hard to beat.

HOWEVER: An outside shot is a low percentage shot, hence you cannot rely on it every game.

That is why teams who live and die by the outside shot alone rarely wins tournaments, where you need to win a number of games, and not just one or two games.

You need to have a balanced offense to win tournaments, meaning offensive presence both inside and out.

But it's still nice to see Gilas win big in international tournaments. I hope to see the day when we finally have international caliber big men (hopefully all local) who will give us that offensive and defensive options underneath the basket consistently.

Kahit Asian level man lang.



kayo naman..maliit nga e kaya 3pt shots lage...

rabbaddal
11-18-2010, 10:41 AM
/\/\

Iran and Serbia are tall teams relative to their leagues but they also rely on the 3-pt shot as their primary offensive option. Serbians/Europeans are really biased to the three. According to a colleague of mine who has a cousin playing in the Italian league, if a scorer constantly misses threes, to the fans it's like scoring an own goal in soccer. In other words, aalaskahin siya.

lekiboy
11-18-2010, 10:58 AM
^ for tall teams, it's their style of play...
for us, it's a necessity.

Schortsanitis
11-18-2010, 11:17 AM
Serbia and Iran has solid big men, they're not all just shooters out there.

Of course, the level of skill of their big men also has limitations. In levels where their big men can dominate, they are hard to beat, because they have a balanced offense. Iran's big men can dominate at Asian level, but not beyond that. Hence, they are kings in Asia, but not much outside of Asia.

As for Serbia, whenever shorter teams like the Philippine National team plays against them, they don't just shoot all game long from the outside. They use their height advantage to force their way in also, hence the inability of the PH team to beat them even in exhibition games awhile back.

bluegreen
11-18-2010, 08:19 PM
/\/\

The inclusion of PBA players was due to public pressure on SG to deliver instant results. Originally, the goal was simply to reach the Asian Games semis, but eventually it morphed into having to win a medal. So now, RP has to accomplish in 3 years what took more than a decade for Iran and Lebanon to achieve.


That's why Gilas just went back to the old stop gap method of getting PBA Players for the National Team, and adding so-called "Fil-Foreigners" on the line-up due to this win-at-all-costs mentality, short cut system.

We need a long-term developmental program, not this short cut method which is old and outdated already.

Also, part of the program is developing our National Coaches, all the money is spent on players, recruiting and naturalizing them - hogwash.

Jaworski (1990-Silver Medal), Black (1994-Bronze Medal), Cone (1998-4th Place) have all done better than all National Teams put together after their stints as National Coaches. These guys were Filipino or had "roots" already with the Philippines thus practically Pinoy sila, same with most of their players (Jaworski's 1990 Team was All-True-Filipino).

Toroman is here as its a job and nothing else, nothing to do with national pride or anything else - trabaho lang so the passion for the country will never by there. Iba talaga kapag tunay na Pinoy ang lumalaban para sa Bansa!!

Develop our coaches, discover and develop players/athletes (for ALL Sports) and do this very LONG TERM and we will get results - this current system will never work.



Your analogy w/ Jawo and Cone has a flaw though. If you look at the PBA teams' performances, you'll see it has been deteriorating over the years - silver, bronze, 4th place, eliminated. Starting with Jawo's silver in 1990, the Philippines got completely kicked out of contention by 2006. It's obvious that some intervention had to be done.

Suffice to say, SBP has done some things that are counterproductive to long term development. But at least the setup now is much better than when the Philippines used to depend on the PBA.


It has deteriorated and even the SBP and Gilas has not come close to those performances, despite all the money thrown at them and importing players. The set-up HAS returned to the old system - i remember their declaration that Gilas was formed so that the National Team "does not have to depend in the PBA."

What did they do at the last minute? "Borrow" Taulava, Williams and Mercado from the PBA at the expense of players they recruited 2 years ago. So much for "the program."

Schortsanitis
11-18-2010, 08:55 PM
At least there's a program. I mean, we're it not for the SBP, what kind of National Team would we be fielding out there?

lekiboy
11-18-2010, 09:37 PM
It has deteriorated and even the SBP and Gilas has not come close to those performances, despite all the money thrown at them and importing players. The set-up HAS returned to the old system - i remember their declaration that Gilas was formed so that the National Team "does not have to depend in the PBA."

What did they do at the last minute? "Borrow" Taulava, Williams and Mercado from the PBA at the expense of players they recruited 2 years ago. So much for "the program."


well, if you have the resources and the proper influence, you may want to change the set up to your liking...

this involves a lot of money and no one has really taken the initiative to lead except MVP's side..

as for the SG last minute changes....i will call it change order management :)

saka na ako titira sa SG pag may marami na akong pera at pwede na kong mag SPONSOR...otherwise, i will just shut up and support.


madali kaseng tumira agad pero pag ikaw na ang dapat magbigay, may ibibigay ba tayo?
sinubukan, kulang, pinunan, kulang, ginamot, kulang...subok ulit.... yan ang tama sa akin... sakripisyo, pawis at pera ang katapat...hindi laway.

rabbaddal
11-18-2010, 11:13 PM
Serbia's and Iran's #1 offensive option is the 3-point shot. Their inclination is to shoot first. When Smart Gilas went to Serbia, Chris Tiu noted that Partizan had 6'5 point guards who tried to shoot 3s even with the glaring mismatch. The big men only come in as a second option, and they will only work well if the shooters do well. It is the shooters who soften the inside and attract the defense out so that the big men can do their work. Notice that international big men hardly ever post up even if they're 7'2, unlike PBA centers. They rely on the pick and roll to score and only when the defense has been softened up.

This is not to say that big men are useless. It's just that the shooters come first and they create the opportunities for the big men, and even in shooting, the Philippines has some ways to go. Inferior shooting was the reason why they lost to Lebanon and Qatar in the Stankovic Cup. The Philippines can deploy a solid big man also through naturalization. Jamal actually gave a good showing of his talents but somehow his recruitment got messed up. The 6'8 and 6'9 #4 doesn't seem to be a problem either since itcan tap Fil-foreigners for the job.

rabbaddal
11-18-2010, 11:18 PM
It has deteriorated and even the SBP and Gilas has not come close to those performances, despite all the money thrown at them and importing players. The set-up HAS returned to the old system - i remember their declaration that Gilas was formed so that the National Team "does not have to depend in the PBA."

What did they do at the last minute? "Borrow" Taulava, Williams and Mercado from the PBA at the expense of players they recruited 2 years ago. So much for "the program."


Not come close to those performances? Of what? 1990, before the middle eastern countries ramped up their basketball programs and Korea conveniently got eliminated from the semis? Let's not exaggerate '90 and '94. It was a different world back then, with different competitors. It's much more cut throat now with even Qatar and soon, UAE fielding strong teams. A better comparison would be the Chot and Yeng teams, which were outperformed by Gilas' performance in the Stankovic Cup.



What did they do at the last minute? "Borrow" Taulava, Williams and Mercado from the PBA at the expense of players they recruited 2 years ago. So much for "the program."


As I posted before, SBP caved in to public pressure. If you look at how things started out, the intent was really to form a team with young, promising players. But after the Dubai tournament where Gilas did well, expectations from the public started mounting and SBP set a target in stone of qualifying to the Olympics by 2011. That put Toroman in a bind because there was no way Slaugher and Baracael could be as good as Hadadi and Bahrami by 2011. The other thing that went wrong was that the SBP thought it could recruit a strong import easily. It turned out harder than they thought, which disrupted their timeline. So Toroman was left with no alternative but to go to the PBA. Of course, the SBP could've instead tried to tone down the expectations right off the bat, but they didn't. So that's the way it goes. Nonetheless, it's stil better than the old setup of depending on the PBA.

Schortsanitis
11-19-2010, 10:40 AM
If teams were using the three point shot as their first option, then you see them taking more three point shots than 2-point shots. I don't see any teams out there doing that right now.

In the 2010 World FIBA Championships, which teams were in the championships? The US and Turkey. You don't see those teams as taking three point shots only game in and game out, with no dominant big men in the middle.

lekiboy
11-20-2010, 10:25 AM
UPDATE) Close but not quite. (PDI)



The Smart Gilas Pilipinas failed to sustain its strong start as it faltered against the still unbeaten Japan, 58-60, earlier in the 16thAsian Games at Guangzhou, China.

The Nationals scudded to a 14-9 lead at the end of the opening quarter before Japan took it away in a flash and for good in the ensuing period as the PH 5 played catch from that point on.

The Philippine team rallied from six-points down, 51-57 with under five minutes left to come as close as 58-59 in the waning seconds of the game.

But JV Casio, who was one of three Gilas players in double-figure scoring, misfired at the buzzer with 5.9 ticks left that set the final tally.

A win earlier would have boosted PH's chances of barging into the next phase of the tourney.

Instead, Gilas at 1-2, careened to a do-or-die scenario with hapless India and dangerous Chinese-Tapei as the only teams left to face in Group F action.

Marcio Lassiter registered a team-high 13 points to go along with 6 rebounds while Casio had 10.

PBA reinforcement Kelly Williams notched a double-double of 12 points and 12 boards but just went two-of-five from the stripe including a crucial pair at the 1:39 mark of the payoff period with the Philippines trailing Japan by four, 54-58.

Japan is still at the helm in Group F standings toting a 3-0 slate while India, PH’s next opponent that is scheduled this Sunday is at the cellar with a 0-3 mark.

Schortsanitis
11-20-2010, 10:33 AM
19 turnovers, versus Japan's 11. In a close game like this, every turnover counts ...

And 5/24 3-pt shots made. Everytime the team's 3-pt shooting percentages goes to below 33%, it seems in danger of losing the game. We really need big men who can help on the offense inside even if our outside shots are not going in to open up the paint.

rabbaddal
11-21-2010, 05:43 AM
Of course, the US is a different case since it is at a level of its own. So is Turkey, the host country that at least at the most basic level has a big enough pool of tall and athletic basketball players. Turkey also has its own pool of excellent shooters. The Philippines cannot realistically become a US or Turkey. Besides, what for? The first priority is to qualify for the Olympics. We can worry about winning a WC medal when we get there. There are many other countries that have relied on the 3-point as a first option and that was good enough to get them to the Olympics - Serbia, Iran, China, Brazil, USSR/Russia, Lithuania, Korea and a whole lot more. It's not a baseless strategy.

And relying on the 3 as a first option does not mean relying on the 3 as the only option. Those countries use the deadly 3 to soften up the interior defense and create opportunities for their centers and #4s to run the pick and roll inside and score the 2s. So the outcome may sometimes be a "balance" of 3s and 2s, but the 2s would not have been possible without shooting the 3s first.

Just watch the games of Lithuania. When they play well, it is usually preceded by their shooters connecting from the outside to attract the defense, with the centers doing damage inside after the interior has been softened up. When they don't connect their 3s (usually when they play against Dream Teams), they can't run their offense and lose. You also don't see too many isolation post-up plays with its big men.

Will this system win the Philippines an Olympic or WC medal? Probably not. But it will be good enough to get it to the Olympics and take things from there.

reamily
11-21-2010, 07:42 AM
the guys here are believing now even sofo ;D

D_I_A
11-21-2010, 11:18 AM
the guys here are believing now even sofo ;D


you bet..hehe ;D

Schortsanitis
11-21-2010, 12:14 PM
What I'm saying, is that if the team doesn't shoot well, less than 33% from the field, it means the team loses, because it relies too much on outside shooting. But then you can't expect any team to shoot well night in, and night out from the outside, because it is a low percentage shot. The law of averages with you, and your percentages will fall because shooting from a distance is harder.

rabbaddal
11-21-2010, 01:47 PM
If things go according to plan, they shouldn't have to be shooting threes the whole game. It's only at the early stages that they have to convert threes in order to draw the defense out. There are players from Eastern Europe and Asia who score more than 40% in three point shots. When that happens, the center and #4 can run their pick and rolls to get more high-percentage twos and that's where you get the balanced scoring. That's how Iran used Bahrami and Kamrani to free up Hadadi inside and outflank teams like China and Korea.

The problem happens if they can't convert their threes at the beginning, which happens to Smart Gilas in some games. In this case, the zone will simply collapse in the interior and the center and #4 can't do their thing. So the guards and wingmen keep making three point attempts until they sink and that's when the shooting percentages go down. The only recourse for them is to simply become better (or better respected) shooters - either they learn to sink those shots like a Lithuanian or Serbian, or they lose.

bluegreen
11-21-2010, 04:30 PM
At least there's a program. I mean, we're it not for the SBP, what kind of National Team would we be fielding out there?


What program? - they reverted to the old style, hugot kaliwat kanan. The only difference is that they were getting players from abroad and back from the PBA.

Nothing long term except lining their pockets.

bluegreen
11-21-2010, 04:35 PM
If things go according to plan, they shouldn't have to be shooting threes the whole game. It's only at the early stages that they have to convert threes in order to draw the defense out. There are players from Eastern Europe and Asia who score more than 40% in three point shots. When that happens, the center and #4 can run their pick and rolls to get more high-percentage twos and that's where you get the balanced scoring. That's how Iran used Bahrami and Kamrani to free up Hadadi inside and outflank teams like China and Korea.

The problem happens if they can't convert their threes at the beginning, which happens to Smart Gilas in some games. In this case, the zone will simply collapse in the interior and the center and #4 can't do their thing. So the guards and wingmen keep making three point attempts until they sink and that's when the shooting percentages go down. The only recourse for them is to simply become better (or better respected) shooters - either they learn to sink those shots like a Lithuanian or Serbian, or they lose.


In the Asian Games tonight, the Philippine Team should win easily vs. India even with 10 men only. It's the last elims game vs. Chinese Taipei that is crucial.

Top 4 advances to the Quarterfinals, we are 5th now. Japan on top, Iran 2nd, Qatar/Chinese Taipei at 3rd or 4th. The Chinese Taipei game is must win so we can advance.

If they lose, then they pack up their bags and head home. Then so much for the Smart Gilas Pilipinas so-called "program."

rabbaddal
11-21-2010, 10:09 PM
So much for the program? Did you see how Iran placed in 1990 and 1994, when the Philippines was a medalist? Nothing good comes without hard work and perseverance.

Schortsanitis
11-22-2010, 03:27 PM
I don't think anybody can fault Smart Gilas for trying.

Its often easy to criticize, and take potshots at the doers. Heck, lemme do that to any of the other people's pet projects here, and see what happens. LOL

I will reserve my general observation of the Smart Gilas program, after the Asian Games. I already have some opinions formed as of now, but let the whole team finish its stint first, before we all hand out the verdict.

D_I_A
11-22-2010, 05:33 PM
I don't think anybody can fault Smart Gilas for trying.

Its often easy to criticize, and take potshots at the doers. Heck, lemme do that to any of the other people's pet projects here, and see what happens. LOL

I will reserve my general observation of the Smart Gilas program, after the Asian Games. I already have some opinions formed as of now, but let the whole team finish its stint first, before we all hand out the verdict.




fair enough.. ;)

clutchjedi
11-23-2010, 10:43 AM
2 good results for us last night:

PHI 82 TPE 73 = we qualify for the final eight
IRI 88 QAT 46 = Qatar drops to 4th and will face China, pushing us to 3rd to face (South) Korea

Knockout quarterfinals tomorrow (Wed):

F1 bracket:
1:15 PM E2-F3 Korea v Philippines
3:30 PM F1-E4 Japan v North Korea

E1 bracket:
7:15 PM F2-E3 Iran v Jordan
9:30 PM E1-F4 China v Qatar

The_Big_Cat
11-23-2010, 11:36 AM
LIVE streaming available at: http://www.rnhalawi.com/

rabbaddal
11-23-2010, 11:49 PM
I think it's good for them to face Korea instead of China. Korea will test SG's ability to execute. On offense, they move the ball well and score on shooting and transition. On defense they never let up and block the passing lanes unrelentingly. China will let its opponents run its plays and try to beat them in a shooting match.

To put it another way, if they can't beat Korea, then they haven't done everything they can possibly do to prepare for the match.

oca
11-24-2010, 02:36 PM
65 57 kor leads 7 min + in the 4th

link>>>> sana ma-access nyo>>>>>>>>>>>>.

http://nygnow.com/channel/kimchi_tv/...ll-the-16.html

oca
11-24-2010, 02:37 PM
67 58 kor 5:40 4th

oca
11-24-2010, 02:39 PM
4:30 67 58 kor

oca
11-24-2010, 02:42 PM
67 61 kor 3.45 4th

oca
11-24-2010, 02:43 PM
70 61 kor 3.06 4th

oca
11-24-2010, 02:45 PM
70 61 kor 2.39 4th

oca
11-24-2010, 02:46 PM
behind by 9 2.12 remaining

lekiboy
11-24-2010, 02:46 PM
dami nating open looks... daming mintis...

oca
11-24-2010, 02:47 PM
70 63 1.45

oca
11-24-2010, 02:49 PM
70 63 kor 45sec

oca
11-24-2010, 02:51 PM
final 74 66 kor

lekiboy
11-24-2010, 02:53 PM
olats to talaga- we were really firing blanks the whole game except for some..open looks yang mga yan...

kapag open looks, the plays were effective- we just did not convert the opportunities...BUSET!

oca
11-24-2010, 03:03 PM
KOREA PHILIPPINES
Points from Turnovers 6 8
Points in the Paint 32 32
Second Chance Points 12 6
Fast Break Points 0 0
Rebounds 9+27=36 7+18=25

oca
11-24-2010, 03:15 PM
We used 8 players and 6 contributed to the rebound stats.

Korea fielded 10 players and all contributed to the rebound total, 5 players with 1 rebound each.

That shaded area was well fenced by the Koreans for them to log those stats.

Field Conversion: 25/59= 42% for us; 30/63= 48% for the koreans
Free throw: 12/20 for us; 8/10 korea

The rebound and conversion mix is enough to explain the outcome.

Schortsanitis
11-24-2010, 03:32 PM
The stats show we were clearly outrebounded.

A more interesting stat, though, is how well they and us shot from the 2pt. and 3 pt. areas.

What and when is the next game?

oca
11-24-2010, 03:36 PM
The stats show we were clearly outrebounded.

A more interesting stat, though, is how well they and us shot from the 2pt. and 3 pt. areas.

What and when is the next game?



Thur 25 Nov, 2:15pm. We go up against the loser of the Japan v DPR Korea. This is a consolation game to determine the placings for 5th to 8th.

Schortsanitis
11-24-2010, 04:26 PM
Stats for the Sokor-RP game: http://www.gz2010.cn/info/ENG_ENG/BK/BKR173A_BKM40040090100001ENG.html

Sokor shot 33% from the 3pt area, to our 22%, and both teams taking the same number of attempts, 18.

For some reason, former NBA player Ha Seung Jin did not play in this game. Don't know if he's injured, or the Sokor team didn't think it was necessary for him to play.

bchoter
11-24-2010, 06:21 PM
sana... walang oa sa pag puna
sana... sana maging honest ang mga team officials at wag sabihing success pa rin ito

rabbaddal
11-24-2010, 08:09 PM
Korea is Asia's #1 team when it comes to execution and Gilas is trying to model certain aspects of its game after the Korean system. If Gilas lost by less than 10 points to a team like that then it has something going for it. The difference in this game boiled down to 3-point shot conversions (which is Korea's forte in offense) and offensive rebounds, which is something that can be bridged when Douthit starts playing for them.

yungha
11-24-2010, 09:53 PM
sana... walang oa sa pag puna
sana... sana maging honest ang mga team officials at wag sabihing success pa rin ito


yup no excuses. i'm a huge fan of gilas. i believe we should continue working on this model. but man this is just plain awful. we should have at least beaten japan and made it to the semis. chris lutz is a bust. maybe japeth would've made a difference but i don't know, this was a bad loss.

rabbaddal
11-24-2010, 10:39 PM
Maybe Lutz hasn't fit into the rotation yet. Give him a little time to fit in. He missed the Jones and Stankovic Cups and didn't join Gilas in their Serbian tour, though I'm a bit dismayed that he took his sweet time before joining the team.

Toroman ran the plays well, and they got enough open looks at the basket. Look at it another way. If they made all their FTs and converted the same percentage of 3-pt shots as the Koreans (which was even way below their expectations), they would've won the game. Now that's something they can work on.

The_Big_Cat
11-25-2010, 10:05 AM
More pro players for PHL cage team — Uichico
REY JOBLE, GMANews.TV
11/24/2010 | 11:09 PM

Jong Uichico has been to two Asian Games — 1994 in Hiroshima and 2002 in Busan — as well as to the FIBA Asia Championship in 2007, as a member of the coaching staff and as head coach.

And the multi-titled PBA mentor has seen the trend of having professional players suiting up for major Asian basketball tournaments
through the years.

“There’s nothing wrong in sending professional players to international tournaments," said Uichico. “We’re not the only one doing that. In fact, most countries do. Japan, China, Korea are countries which have their own professional leagues and they keep sending professional players to international tournaments."

“So, I don’t see any reason why PBA players won’t be joining our national team. Before, when they established the program for Smart Gilas, they (SBP officials) were saying they will represent the country in future international tournaments, but they keep on going back to the old process, which is tapping PBA players."

For Uichico, head coach of the Barangay Ginebra Gin Kings in the PBA, a young team like Smart Gilas will definitely need reinforcement.

“We have players who are around 23 years old going up against some of the best professional players in the region. Para silang mga bata going up against mga mama, so namamama lang sila," said Uichico. “It’s a good thing that PBA players were included."

Uichico sees the good intention of the Smart Gilas program, a program which was patterned after the blueprint created by former Ambassador Danding Cojuangco, who established a pool of amateur players during the 1980s.

Those amateur players became members of the Northern Consolidated national team and in fact won the Asian Basketball Confederation (now FIBA Asia Championship) crown in 1985 as well as the William Jones Cup title that same year.

But Uichico sees a big difference then and now.

“Before, there was no other professional league in Asia except the PBA," said Uichico, who was a member of the 1984 Northern Consolidated squad that won the first ever FIBA Asia Club Championship in Ipoh, Malaysia.

“The open-basketball policy wasn’t implemented yet at that time, so when it came to international competitions, it was amateurs versus amateurs, so walang may bentahe. Had the open-basketball policy been implemented that time, we could have dominated as well," added Uichico.

But like other people who love basketball, Uichico hopes that one day, our Philippine basketball team will dominate in the region anew. He believes the Smart Gilas program is on the right track.

“They’ve done the first big step, which is naturalizing a player. The second step is the reinforcement from the PBA. The third step is probably preparation and continuity," said Uichico. -KY, GMANews.TV

Schortsanitis
11-25-2010, 10:32 AM
Sending Smart Gilas to major international competitions, is like the USA's previous policy of sending college players before. While the NBA has gone on and started sending its best players abroad, we are actually retrogressing, by sending college players, instead of the best players in the country.

I hope all this talk about the PBA sending players abroad again are not just that: All talk. We need action.

rabbaddal
11-25-2010, 11:20 AM
There are a couple of problems with sending PBA players. For one, the PBA has said "No" to the idea over and over again. The people who really call the shots in the PBA - the team owners - do not want to send their players to international competitions. Uichico can say anything he wants but the fact remains that he doesn't call the shots in the PBA. The other problem has to do with continuity. All pro teams get disbanded after every tounrament so they lose the chance to be exposed to the international game.

Also, the old US practice of sending college players is not the same as what Gilas is trying to do. Those US teams were ragtag teams. Like the dream teams, they were disbanded after every tourney and they go their separate ways. Gilas' players, on the other hand, will for the most part stick to the program for the long haul (albeit some of them have/will leave).

The ideal scenario would be for the PBA, like the Euroleague, to adopt FIBA rules and remove the cap on non-Filipinos playing in the league, as well as the salary cap. That way, Filipino pros can play the international game alongside international-caliber players without having to travel a lot outside the country all year round. But then, it all boils down to what the PBA wants or doesn't want. If they don't want to change, then there's nothing that can be done.

franz_inwurdz
11-25-2010, 03:01 PM
The ideal scenario would be for the PBA, like the Euroleague, to adopt FIBA rules and remove the cap on non-Filipinos playing in the league, as well as the salary cap. That way, Filipino pros can play the international game alongside international-caliber players without having to travel a lot outside the country all year round. But then, it all boils down to what the PBA wants or doesn't want. If they don't want to change, then there's nothing that can be done.


naku madaming magagalit nyan. ;D Lalo na yung mga nationalista(kuno) dyan.

yungha
11-25-2010, 08:38 PM
mvp funded 12 men in this gilas campaign and they have no medal to show for it. he also funded 1 woman and 5 men on the boxing team at probably 10% of what it took to support gilas and they gave the country 1 gold, 1 silver and 1 bronze. mvp's a businessman through and through and maybe he's thinking it's more efficient to help out in sports with a higher return on investment like boxing, the martial arts, rowing, cycling, swimming, diving, etc.

from all indications, though, mvp's willing to continue funding gilas even if they fail to make the london olympics. in a recent interview, mvp said there's no reason to stop trying and to disband the program even if they fail to qualify for london, in which case they'll try for rio de janeiro 2016.

rabbaddal
11-25-2010, 09:12 PM
The difference between boxing and basketball though is that the Philippines was an elite player in the Asian boxing circuit long before MVP came in. They've won medals in almost every Asian Games and some Olympics since way back. Our boxing program is attuned to the best practices in the world so when MVP came in, all he had to do was give it an extra lift. Consider that MVP did not dismantle and replace the ABAP when he came in. But with the BAP, he had to replace it with something new.

Philippine basketball, on the other hand, has been out of the loop for decades. We won medals in '90 and '94 but we all know that those laurels were not sustainable. Putting together a program that was almost in line with what the rest of the world was doing meant starting something from scratch.

bluegreen
11-26-2010, 07:44 AM
final 74 66 kor


This will be the Philippines worst finish in the Asian Games since 1978.

Need we say more about the "program?"

easter
11-26-2010, 09:19 AM
final 74 66 kor


This will be the Philippines worst finish in the Asian Games since 1978.

Need we say more about the "program?"


Right from the start, this is a team whose main goal is to qualify for the 2012 Olympics and not the 2010 Asian Games. If it does not qualify in 2012 then and only then should it be considered of not meeting its goal.

Schortsanitis
11-26-2010, 10:43 AM
The Smart Gilas Program

First of all, we need to be reminded on why the Smart Gilas program was established in the first place. Essentially, the Philippine Basketball Association (PBA) was starting to get tired of lending its players to the National Team, and not getting consistent, good results (i.e., medal standing finishes). The Samahang Basketbolista ng Pilipinas or SBP therefore offered an alternative, and it is the Smart Gilas program.

The program aims to form a national team mainly of players outside of the PBA, and keep it for a relatively long time. It will have good funding, good training programs, good exposure in international competitions, and have the best available coaches possible.

The pool of Smart Gilas players ended up composed mostly of the best players from local colleges, and so called Fil-Foreigners (players with mixed foreign and Filipino blood) from schools abroad. Some of these Fil-Foreigners have excellent credentials, coming from US NCAA Division 1 schools.

In terms of execution, I think the program has done very well so far. It has been able to get most of the best college players in the country, and has been able to discover Fil-Foreign talent as well. It has been able to expose these players in various international competitions all over the world. It has the best coaches available to it, and funding (or money) is almost never a problem.

'Retrogression'
In hindsight, though, it would seem to me that the progam is in fact, a RETROGRESSION for the Philippines. This program reminds me of the USA's policy before of sending its best college players to compete in major international tournaments. It worked for awhile, but when the world started to catch up to the US in basketball starting around the 1990s, it ended up being a disaster, in that the US National Team was being beaten by other countries, shutting it out of the medal race.

Nowadays, the US' National Basketball Association (NBA) is allowing its best players to play in major international tournaments, as long as the player is willing to play. And here we are, generally keeping our pros from playing in international competitions, and getting college players instead.

'Experience, and Survival of the Fittest'
The US College Players failed for a number of reasons, first of which was the fact that they were boys playing against men. You had players in their late teens and early twenties playing against players who were in their mid twenties to early thirties, or players who easily have a five or ten year advantage in terms of experience.

Another, more important factor, is the fact that the colleger players were not the best in the country. They were the best in college, but not in the whole country. They therefore were not sorted out from a selection of the best the country can offer.

Its the same with Smart Gilas: JV Casio and Chris Tiu were the best in college in recent years. However, compare them against the likes of Jimmy Alapag, or James Yap, who are the best in the country, and personally I would say there is a gap between the individual talent of Casio/Tiu and Alapag/Yap.

Casio and Tiu are great players, but it is still a big question if they can approximate Alapag and Yap in the PBA consistently, if they had played in the PBA.

The selection process, is "Survival of the fittest ... among college players", but not the survival of the fittest among the best in the country.

'Hard Choices'
The Philippines basically in a bind right now: Sending the best players in the country is no guarantee of a shot at the medal race, as was the case with PBA All-Star teams in 2007 and 2009.

However, sending anything less, like the Smart Gilas, risks of ending up with much worst.

The availability of an "import", or naturalized player in the person of Douthit will improve the chances of Gilas. However, Douthit is only one player, and he can be contained, or get into foul trouble. In the end, basketball is pretty much a team sport, needing team effort to win tournaments, not just games.

Team cohesion is important, but so is talent. One cannot hope to win tournaments based on either qualities alone: It has to have both talent, and cohesion.

A long term Gilas program will likely have cohesion, but not talent. A PBA All-Star team will have the talent, but not the cohesion. Ideally, the best program we could produce right now, would be to keep the core of the 2009 National Team for a long time, plus Douthit. And by the "core", that means including the Coach.

'Parting Shot'
I think the PBA was hoping to wash its hands clean of the National Team by leaving it all to the Smart Gilas program. It saves them from spending a lot of money; From the embarassment of being out of the medal race; And from the inconvenience of losing its best players during PBA games, and possibly losing them from injuries also.

Currently, there are really no other viable alternative progams out there. Personally, I am not optimistic of the team's chances in the future, even with an import around. However, it is the only worthwhile program out there, outside of the PBA. And therefore deserving of our support.

There has been some talk lately by some PBA personalities about again allowing its players to play in major international tournaments. I hope it is all not just talk, and that action will follow allowing an all-star PBA team, with Douthit, and a long term coach to go through a long-term basketball program.

yungha
11-26-2010, 11:11 AM
^ schort, you may think we're retrogressing but don't forget that chot's team was 9th in 2007 and yeng's was 8th in 2009. this year we'll probably be 5th. chot's team, with seigle, williams, taulava, alapag, norwood, raymundo, ranidel, etc, would have fared worse had the chinese not sent a watered-down team which we beat twice.

i'm disappointed with this performance, i honestly don't think we'll qualify for london, but i still think this is the way to go.

Schortsanitis
11-26-2010, 11:28 AM
^ schort, you may think we're retrogressing but don't forget that chot's team was 9th in 2007 and yeng's was 8th in 2009. this year we'll probably be 5th. chot's team, with seigle, williams, taulava, alapag, norwood, raymundo, ranidel, etc, would have fared worse had the chinese not sent a watered-down team which we beat twice.

i'm disappointed with this performance, i honestly don't think we'll qualify for london, but i still think this is the way to go.


Chot's team simply played against better competition. Haddadi was there, the Lebanese were in full strength, so were the Jordanians and Qataris.

And, take note: Chot's team beat South Korea, and Japan. With an all-Filipino team. This Smart Gilas team would've beat Japan and probably SK with an import around in Douthit, but then, we wouldn't be playing with an all-pinoy team.

rabbaddal
11-26-2010, 11:56 AM
final 74 66 kor


This will be the Philippines worst finish in the Asian Games since 1978.

Need we say more about the "program?"


They finished 7th and 9th in the last 2 FIBA Asia Championships though, which were more recent than the last time they played in the AG. And they had PBA players those times. If they finish 5th in this AG, then that would be an improvement albeit not the medal people wanted.

rabbaddal
11-26-2010, 12:15 PM
Chot's team could not beat Jordan. Smart Gilas beat Jordan in all but one of their encounters, with Rasheim Wright in the lineup. The Philippines did not meet Qatar in 2007, but they did meet in Qatar in 2009 and lost. We beat Qatar now and they are no less stronger as a team than they were in 09.

One thing is clear - Smart Gilas did better than both the 2007 and 2009 PBA lineups and with a team that was as Filipino as the 07 and 09 teams (both had fil-fors).

Another thing is clear - The Philippines' performance under the PBA sponsorship was deteriorating (and deteriorating fast).

What are the choices? Status quo was no longer acceptable. We were already sending the "best players" and being relegated to 7th/9th place. Gilas got us back up to 5th in two major Asian tournaments (AG and Stankovic) in a span of one year, so any suggestion that we got lucky simply does not hold water. Going up 2 places is not retrogressing.

There is no other available option to make it to the Olympics (2012 or later) than this.

Schortsanitis
11-26-2010, 12:25 PM
Worst finish in the Asian Games Basketball "not retrogressing"?

Being beaten by all-local teams like Japan and South Korea "not retrogressing"?

I'm not saying the PBA should send its All-Star team like it used to. If it doesn't want to, fine. I'm saying though, that if you want to keep sending college players to play against men, then expect the worst. Sure, the import there will likely help out, but in no way this team is going to London.

The_Big_Cat
11-26-2010, 12:41 PM
I would still say the best pinoy ballers are in the PBA.
But we still need to wait after 2011 since that is the SBP's target goal.

rabbaddal
11-26-2010, 12:52 PM
When you're measuring performance of any kind, the primary basis is sequential performance. Especially in sports, where they always say that you're only as good as your last season.

What good was our 4th place finish in 2002, when we landed 7th and 9th in 2007 and 2009? Let's put it another way - What was more reflective of the real state of Philippine basketball? 2002 or 2009?

So, when you get from 7th, then 9th, then 5th, then hopefully 5th again, that's not retrogressing. That's progressing.

You may think Smart Gilas won't make it to London in 2012, but they're more likely to make it to the top 3 in Asia than any PBA team we can possibly form. If we stick to the PBA approach, we will get nowhere except further down. I'd much rather take my chances with Gilas if that's the only alternative we have.

On the side - we've been beaten by all-local Korean teams since 1994, even with fil-ams in the lineup. Losing to Korea is nothing new.

Schortsanitis
11-26-2010, 01:01 PM
I don't argue for the sake of arguing. I argue for the truth. And the truth is, this Smart Gilas team has failed its very own targets it has set for these Asian Games. It has ended up with the worst finish by the Philippines in Asian Games basketball since 1978, and has been beaten by teams we used to beat before.

The team can't even make it to the medal race in the Asian Games, and then suddenly its going to London?

rabbaddal
11-26-2010, 01:11 PM
You can't make an argument when the facts are quite obvious.

7th place -> 9th place -> 5th place -> 5th place (possible) is not retrogression.

It's not retrogression not because of how you argue. It's not retrogression simply because it is not.

As they say in objectivism - "A" is "A".

Smart Gilas has its faults. It could've done better in this AG. It could've picked marginally better players. But retrogression is clearly not one of them. Any statement that this team has retrogressed is plain hogwash.

Schortsanitis
11-26-2010, 01:26 PM
How the heck can you compare finishes in different international competitions? We finsh fifth in the Asian Games, then you compare that with finishes in the FIBA-Asia Championships?

If you want facts then here are the facts:
- All All-Star PBA Teams in the Asian Games finished than the fifth place finish of Smart Gilas
- Smart Gilas itself failed its own target of finishing in the medal race in the Asian Games

If this is not retrogression, I don't know what is.

rabbaddal
11-26-2010, 01:43 PM
Maybe you don't really know what retrogression is. I would like to think not, but you're proving otherwise.

Do not confuse retrogression with underperformance. You can only say you retrogressed if you did worse than your most recent performance. You can underperform if you say you'll win a gold but end up with a silver. The correct way to put it is that they progressed, but underperformed.

And yes, you can compare FIBA Asia with the Asian Games because the participants are more or less the same - China, Korea, Iran, Japan, Taiwan and other middle eastern countries.

To sum it up: 7th place -> 9th place -> 5th place -> 5th place (possible) is not retrogression. This is something that can't be challenged.

franz_inwurdz
11-26-2010, 01:58 PM
Ang retrogression ay base sa past performance.

Ang underperform/(achieve) ay base sa projection. Ito sa tingin ko ang punto ni schort. base sa expectations at goals, nag underperform ang SG.

pareho kayong tama.

kaya't tama na. ;D

rabbaddal
11-26-2010, 02:06 PM
He wasn't careful with his choice of words. Tsk...tsk. ;)

But then it throws the analysis posted above out the window because retrogression and underperfromance have entirely different implications.

You can address underperformance by doing a simple "what went wrong" analysis and making marginal adjustments. Even proven gold medal winners fumble sometimes. You don't have to change a large part of the program, unless it keeps underperforming every year.

If the team really did retrogress on the other hand, then it means there is something structurally wrong with the decisions they made and nothing short of an overhaul would be needed. Then again, you'd have to consider all the options you realistically have. The evidence clearly proves that Smart Gilas did not retrogress.

Schortsanitis
11-26-2010, 02:14 PM
How can the worst finish in the Asian Games be "not" a retrogression, aber?

Not only is the performance a retrogression, the policy in fact, is a retrogression.

'Nag retrogress na yung performance, yung policy e nag retrogress pa.'

LOL

Its obvious some people here are just trolling. I can't believe they miss me that much at PEx. LOL

If its some sort of payback for all those Anti-Abnoy sentiments, don't worry, I'll bring that along as well here, and will continue it over at other sites.

easter
11-26-2010, 04:42 PM
The Smart Gilas Program
Team cohesion is important, but so is talent. One cannot hope to win tournaments based on either qualities alone: It has to have both talent, and cohesion.

A long term Gilas program will likely have cohesion, but not talent. A PBA All-Star team will have the talent, but not the cohesion.


You have made a very important point here. As a long time basketball observer, I will take cohesion against talent anytime.

The original Smart Gilas players have cohesion but the talent needs to be developed. The PBA has talent and needs cohesion, but with the present realities right now, it is impossible to do so since team work takes time, even years of playing. In this case we can see that Smart Gilas is the better alternative.

clutchjedi
11-26-2010, 05:08 PM
^ And the happy middle ground may be how this 2010 team was formed:
- 9 mainstays to provide cohesion, selected from a larger training pool
- plus 3 PBA reinforcements (from "supportive" teams) who fill in talent/size needs
- hoping to significantly raise the talent & size level while minimizing the loss in cohesion

Unless the PBA situation changes, this may the most realistic way to form the strongest possible team.

clutchjedi
11-26-2010, 05:28 PM
Showing how close and competitive our Group F was:

1st/2nd place = China/Korea = from Group E
but then 3rd-4th-5th-6th = Iran/Japan, Qatar/Philippines = all from Group F.

Also interesting, in the semis China d. Iran 68-65, Korea d. Japan 55-51. Both close scores, makes me think that on a good day we might have been able to upset even the top teams.

Schortsanitis
11-26-2010, 05:54 PM
You have made a very important point here. As a long time basketball observer, I will take cohesion against talent anytime.

The original Smart Gilas players have cohesion but the talent needs to be developed. The PBA has talent and needs cohesion, but with the present realities right now, it is impossible to do so since team work takes time, even years of playing. In this case we can see that Smart Gilas is the better alternative.


You could get the core of the 2007 and 2009 teams, put a single coach for the next 3-5 years (Chot should be fine), and have that team compete in major international competitions, like all the sanctioned tournaments by FIBA. I think you will be able to form a cohesive team from that core.

Guys like Jayjay, Alapag, Yap, Asi and Williams have been playing together for two straight national teams now. Add or deduct some players as needed, and then throw in Douthit.

The key, is to have that core of players and coaches play together 2-3 major tournaments every single year, and keep that program for 3-5 years. That would ensure a good balance between cohesion, and talent.

As for changes, do an evaluation every year. If you can keep a core of 6-8 players plus coach, that would be a good program to start with.

bluegreen
11-26-2010, 07:12 PM
final 74 66 kor


This will be the Philippines worst finish in the Asian Games since 1978.

Need we say more about the "program?"


Right from the start, this is a team whose main goal is to qualify for the 2012 Olympics and not the 2010 Asian Games. If it does not qualify in 2012 then and only then should it be considered of not meeting its goal.


Ha ha ha, are you kidding bro?

The two main competitions related to qualifying for the 2012 Olympics in London is the Asian Games and the FIBA Asia tournament next year - the Asian Games because you will play the teams that you will also play in the FIBA Asia Tournament, the qualifier for the Olympics wherein we have to place in the TOP TWO,or in short, make it into the Finals.

We should be at the very least fighting in the Semi-Finals of the Asian Games if we want to have an outside chance to make it to London, as a build up to the FIBA Asia which is early next year.

That's the problem with having FilAms, FilForeigners or FilShams on our National Team.

Not to mention a Foreign Coach with a questionable past, and a "who they?" bunch of assistants. Toroman has produced the worst finish by a Philippine Team in the Asian Games ever in our history in the games. All true Filipino Coaches before him, plus Tim Cone, all did better with less resources and less preparation than this team.

And you think this team will qualify for the Olympics? Ha ha! It's a pipe dream buddy.

The passion, the drive, the "puso" to win for the country is just NOT there with these players. Maybe our truly Filipino players like Casio, Tiu, Barroca wanted to win but if the bigs don't have the heart, what can the others do.

Masakit isipin but Smart Gilas has been nothing but a "pera-pera" operation. The money thrown on these guys and spent on the "program" is disgusting, and this is what we all get in return.

Nakakhiya at nakakasuka.

Schortsanitis
11-26-2010, 07:13 PM
Smart Gilas just lost to the Qataris, 80-71, ending up in 6th place in the tournament.

bluegreen
11-26-2010, 07:19 PM
Smart Gilas just lost to the Qataris, 80-71, ending up in 6th place in the tournament.


See what I mean? They blasted these guys several days ago and now since its for 5th place they give up? Baka wala na won-game bonus kaya ayaw na lumaban ang Smart Gilas, pakitang gilas na lang :'(

cheeze
11-26-2010, 09:15 PM
final 74 66 kor


This will be the Philippines worst finish in the Asian Games since 1978.

Need we say more about the "program?"


Right from the start, this is a team whose main goal is to qualify for the 2012 Olympics and not the 2010 Asian Games. If it does not qualify in 2012 then and only then should it be considered of not meeting its goal.


Ha ha ha, are you kidding bro?

The two main competitions related to qualifying for the 2012 Olympics in London is the Asian Games and the FIBA Asia tournament next year - the Asian Games because you will play the teams that you will also play in the FIBA Asia Tournament, the qualifier for the Olympics wherein we have to place in the TOP TWO,or in short, make it into the Finals.

We should be at the very least fighting in the Semi-Finals of the Asian Games if we want to have an outside chance to make it to London, as a build up to the FIBA Asia which is early next year.

That's the problem with having FilAms, FilForeigners or FilShams on our National Team.

Not to mention a Foreign Coach with a questionable past, and a "who they?" bunch of assistants. Toroman has produced the worst finish by a Philippine Team in the Asian Games ever in our history in the games. All true Filipino Coaches before him, plus Tim Cone, all did better with less resources and less preparation than this team.

And you think this team will qualify for the Olympics? Ha ha! It's a pipe dream buddy.

The passion, the drive, the "puso" to win for the country is just NOT there with these players. Maybe our truly Filipino players like Casio, Tiu, Barroca wanted to win but if the bigs don't have the heart, what can the others do.

Masakit isipin but Smart Gilas has been nothing but a "pera-pera" operation. The money thrown on these guys and spent on the "program" is disgusting, and this is what we all get in return.

Nakakhiya at nakakasuka.





you said that asian games and fiba asia are the two closest competition for qualifying in the olympics. yes, you are right there. but, losing in this asian games will not really affect our chances in qualifying. fiba asia lang naman ang tunay na qualifying tournament e. in that case, the asian games can even serve as a way of checking our opponents. yes, we lost. but, at the end of the day, olympics ang goal ng Smart Gilas.

i also feel bad that our team lost. siyempre team natin yun e. pero, we just need to support them lalo na't talo na sila. pilipino ang mga iyan.

on your accusations of not playing with "puso", i think this is very relative and we can just accuse the team. anyone can say that pero you cannot find proofs. puro ad hominem lang ang nangyayari e. marami sa players na yan ang may choice mag-PBA, marami na ang gumawa niyan (al-hussaine, et al), pero marami pa rin ang naiwan.

of course, they do not have the best talent out there because it's in the pba but they are trying their best to make a real team with continuity. hindi lang rag-tag-all-star teams.

on losing to qatar, it does not mean na matalo man natin ang isang team ay tatalunin na sila lagi. what you did not see is the close competition they gave. close ang games ng gilas at if they continue their development, makukuha at makukuha rin yan.

i understand your feelings but be objective. masyado kang emotional e. ;D

rabbaddal
11-26-2010, 09:56 PM
And still some people can't understand simple vocabulary.

Going from 9th place to 6th is not retrogressing. It is not. May pa "aber" pa. :D

Comparing to 2002 performance is pointless, because 2007 and 2009 are more reflective of the state of Philippine basketball. We were a 9th place team when Gilas took over, not a 4th place team. Please, do not challenge this. ;)

The suggestion that we can get the "core 2007 and 2009 PBA teams" is bogus because we simply can't. When will people finally get it that 9 players is too much of a commitment for the PBA. PBA has said so many times in so many ways that they don't want to do this. If the PBA could commit 9 players all year round then we wouldn't need to bring in Smart Gilas in the first place. If you want to look for alternatives, please keep it grounded in reality.

rabbaddal
11-26-2010, 10:05 PM
That's the problem with having FilAms, FilForeigners or FilShams on our National Team.

All true Filipino Coaches before him, plus Tim Cone, all did better with less resources and less preparation than this team.


Masakit isipin but Smart Gilas has been nothing but a "pera-pera" operation. The money thrown on these guys and spent on the "program" is disgusting, and this is what we all get in return.


The one about Filipino coaches doing better "with less resources" is not true. Basketball teams are expensive to run. So you don't like "pera pera" operations"? Those PBA teams we sent cost more than 10 million pesos for 4-month preparations. If you annualize that, you'll see it's a staggering amount. Anything we do will entail a lot of money.

Fil-fors are so pervasive in the PBA that our national teams will always include them with or without Smart Gilas. No use in whining about them.

Schortsanitis
11-26-2010, 10:09 PM
Nagmalaki pa, na ibang tao daw ang di nakakaintindi, e obyus naman na siya ang kulang sa utak para umintindi. LOL

Sixth place finish, pinagpipilitang hindi daw "regression", tapos pilit ikumpara yung resulta ng ibang tournament para ipagpilitan yung desperado niyang "analysis" kuno. LOL

rabbaddal
11-26-2010, 10:13 PM
Let's see him explain the diffference in the competition between FIBA 2009 and Asian Games 2010. ;)

Schortsanitis
11-26-2010, 10:19 PM
Pababaan na lang daw ng IQ, o, at me mananalo rito, yung nagpupumilit sa pinagmamalaki niyang "analysis" na okay lang pagkumparahin ang resulta ng Asian Games, at FIBA-Asia Championships. LOL

rabbaddal
11-26-2010, 10:21 PM
And still he can't explain why he thinks there's a difference.

Schortsanitis
11-26-2010, 10:26 PM
Tama. Pag parehasin na natin yung Asian Games at FIBA-Asia, para maipagpilitan natin na hindi "retrogression" yung mga teams tulad ng Japan at South Korea na natatalo natin nuon, e, biglang di natin matalo-talo.

LOL

Qatar? Yung pinagmamalaking natalo daw natin nuon, o, ayan, yung pinagpipilitang "5th place" daw dati, naging "6th place" na ng matalo.

rabbaddal
11-26-2010, 10:43 PM
That's plain wrong. Qatar was was a 9th placer in 2002, but a silver medalist in 2006 (next Asian Games) and 6th placer in 2009. Malaking bagay yan.

Korea has beaten the Philippines in more Asian Games than the Philippines has beaten it. We lost to them in 2009 as well. In the greater scheme of things, Korea comes out ahead of the Philippines. It is foolish to think that we have somehow turned the corner on them.

Iran was not did not compete in 2002, but they did in 2009. Malaking bagay din yan.

Japan, I agree, we should've beaten. But we either win or lose to them by single digit margins anyway so it's not unlikely that they could turn the tables on us at any given time.

When you compare 2002 to 2010, the biggest difference is Iran and Qatar. Iran was absent in 02 and Qatar was a marginal player. By 2007, both were powerhoueses.

So it is wrong to compare 2010 with 2002 when the competition was easier. There was no "retrogression".

Next, saying that we can send "a core" of 9 PBA players and make them compete in 3 big tournaments a year is delusional. It ain't gonna happen. PBA has objected to this too many times that it becomes pointless to bring it up as an alternative to Smart Gilas.

Schortsanitis
11-27-2010, 09:26 AM
Pahabaan na lang daw na lang daw ng walang kwentang post, o. Pag mahina ang kukute mo, at mga desperadong argumento tulad ng ipagpipilitan mong ikumpara yung FIBA-Asia Championships at Asian Games, e di gumawa ka lang ng mahabang post, para kunwari malakas ang argumento mo.

LOL

Sabagay, pang isang foreign coach lang naman natin iyang si Toroman. Kelangan pa natin ng siyam na foreign coaches pa, at sampung taon para para manalo daw sa FIBA-Asia.

LOL

rabbaddal
11-27-2010, 10:18 AM
You're the one who keeps on making worthless posts.

Uulitin ko ang simple -

Noong 2002, wala ang Iran. Bano ang Qatar. Pagdating ng 2007 at 2009, pumupwesto na sila. Kaya yung "retrogression", nangyari na noong 2007 at 2009. Hindi ngayon na 6th place tayo. Improvement ang tawag diyan.

Yung PBA, ayaw magpahiram ng 9 na player ng buong taon. Walang katuturan yung kuro mo na kaya nating gumawa ng matinong PBA team.

Totoo naman, diba? Bakit ka napipikon sa totoo? Ganyan ka ba kapag nalalaman mong mali ka? ;)

O sige, eto ang hamon ko - patunayan mo na mali ako. Patunayan mo na ang 9th place ay mas maigi kesa sa 6th place. Tingan natin kung kaya mo.

Schortsanitis
11-27-2010, 11:46 AM
Delusional? Worst place in the Asian Games, tapos ipapipilitan na makakapunta daw sa London in 2012?

LOL

Sabagay, hindi na "delusion" iyan. Malamang katangahan na.

LOL

Pinagmalaki pa yung na natalo yung Qatar. O di ayan, 6th place finish dahil tinalo ng Qatar.

LOL

Patunayan mo na lang, kung bakit hindi katangahan yung sumemplang yung Gilas sa Asian Games, tapos ipagpipilitang makakapunta daw sa London.

LOL

rabbaddal
11-27-2010, 12:13 PM
Once again, you have proven nothing. Please, do not try to change the topic.

You said we can form a good team with 9 PBA players. That's delusional. We can't. I challenged you to refute this but you remain silent.

It's not "retrogression" when you go fron 9th place to 6th. I challenged you to refute this but again you remain silent.

I did not boast about beating Qatar. I challenge you to quote me. Will you be silent about this also?

I also said that Iran did not compete in 2002. That is true.

Look, it's OK to say that you can't prove that I'm wrong. You can't hide your failure by trying to change the topic.

Schortsanitis
11-27-2010, 12:31 PM
Proof? From some idiot who insists that a National team with its worst finish in the Asian Games can go to London 'kuno?' LOL Talk about stupidity.

Panay edit pa. Ano yan, takot? Yan ang tinatawag na "sulong-urong". LOL

Asian Games = FIBA-Asia kuno, para lang matakpan ang kapalpakan ng Gilas, at ipagpilitan na hindi daw "regression" yung "worst place finish". LOL

The_Big_Cat
11-27-2010, 12:38 PM
One has to consider that the past Asian Games stints were PBA-backed national teams; 1990 (Beijing), 1994 (Hiroshima), 1998 (Bangkok) and 2002 (Busan). This is the first Asian Games that we had a mix of amateur and PBA players since 1994.

I don't see this 6th place finish at the 2010 Asian Games as a disappointment. This is not what the SBP is aiming for.

The_Big_Cat
11-27-2010, 12:50 PM
I think people here expected a lot from this Asian Games. This was due to the superb finish that SMART Gilas had in the 2010 Stankovic Cup which we placed 4th despite missing Marcus Douthit. This team is still learning.

When you have players coming-in and coming-out of this program, cohesion will be a problem. For the longest time, this team were without PBA players. Then you have player withdrawals from the pool like Al Hussaini, JR Cawaling, RJ Jazul and Rey Guevarra and the insertions of Fil-Ams Lassiter & Lutz plus the on-and-off relationship with the Natuarlized candidates; CJ Giles, Taft and now Douthit. These factors will take its toll on the team particularly the chemistry and cohesion.

rabbaddal
11-27-2010, 01:00 PM
Ho hum. You are still trying to change the discussion.

Let's get back to topic, shall we? ;)

Your idea about forming a good PBA team with 9 PBA players is delusional. I asked you to prove otherwise but you remain silent.

You said I boasted about beating Qatar. I challenged you to prove this but you remain silent.

You called a national team that had gone from 9th place to 6th place in tournaments with the same competitors "retrogressing". How does that make sense? You are also silent about this.

I pointed out that Iran did not play in 2002. You have no answer to this.

Now you are trying to change the topic. FYI, I already answered that long ago. It was Oca who first posed the question. I explained how it can be done. Scroll up and find it until your eyes turn white. You have no sense of originality. No wonder you keep making worthless posts.

Ang sabihin mo, naduduwag kang aminin na hindi mo kayang harapin yung hinamon ko sa iyo kaya iniiba mo na yung usapan.

<last edited by rabbaddal in pursuit of amusement> :D

rabbaddal
11-27-2010, 01:21 PM
I think people here expected a lot from this Asian Games. This was due to the superb finish that SMART Gilas had in the 2010 Stankovic Cup which we placed 4th despite missing Marcus Douthit. This team is still learning.


Although from what I've seen so far, most of the people who are highly critical of the Asian Games performance were opposed to Smart Gilas for the most part anyway, despite not knowing what's going on.

Just look around. Without even using his head about proper (and obvious) comparisons, one excited juvenile wrote a long unimaginative essay about "The Smart Gilas Program" after getting carried away by some posters' claims that it was the worst performance in the Asian Games so far.

It looks like the general sentiment among level headed observants is that they could've done better, but this is still the way to go in the absence of other realistic alternatives and it's definitely better than finishing 9th.

Schortsanitis
11-27-2010, 01:34 PM
What's moronic, is putting up a wall of words to hide one's stupidity, and lack of brain cells.

The ones with the argument that goes like, "we have the worst finish ever in the Asian Games, and its not a retrogression, but everything is okay, and we will go to London".

LOL

Or, "we need nine more foreign coaches, and ten more years so we can win the Asian Games like Iran".

LOL

nightowl
11-27-2010, 06:29 PM
Can someone enlighten me as to the objectives of the Smart Gilas program?

Correct me if I am wrong but is the present objective to regain our stature as one of the basketball giants in Asia? If so, we obviously have our work cut out for us, considering our 6th place finish in these Asian Games.

If the intermediate objective is to qualify for the Olympics, with the ultimate goal being a medal, then I think we are wasting our time and lots and lots of money.

I do not think we will EVER be able to finish in the top three in the world, EVER!

We are ranked some 40-50 places away from the top three, so all the naturalized players, fil-foreigners, foreign coaches and competition and training abroad (junkets?) will NOT make us get to a medal in the Olympics. That's also because the other 40-50 teams ahead of us right now, are not sitting on their as--s while we try to do our thing.

This is just my opinion, but the money spent here could probably fund 100 boxers/track and field athletes with better chances of making the Olympics. Of course, MVP can do what he wants......its his money.

Schortsanitis
11-27-2010, 07:14 PM
Well, from a practical point of view, it does seem that money would be more well spent on sports that we have a better chance of getting results.

However, basketball is closer to the hearts of the Filipino people, hence your products get more exposure when you support the basketball team.

rabbaddal
11-27-2010, 08:24 PM
Using characterizations proves that you can't step up to my challenege. Is that what you were brought up, to run away from a discussion? :D

How can someone retrogress from 9th place to 6th place? Or will you be silent about it?

Where did I boast about beating Qatar? Scroll up and quote, if you can.

If you don't think it's delusional, explain how we can form a good team of 9 PBA players?

Will you admit that Iran didn't compete in 2002?

It's OK to say that you stand corrected. It really is. And it shows more wisdom than someone who keeps changing the topic and keeping his silence on his errors.

<last edited by rabbaddal to bait another pathetic answer> ;D

Schortsanitis
11-27-2010, 08:29 PM
Some idiot "analysts" kuno here insists on milking MVP of his millions for ".... a decade ... " daw, hiring foreign coaches left and right, before we win in Asia.

One wonders what kind of brain process thinks of stupid ideas like this.

LOL

Baka naman me kamaganak na kumikita sa Smart-Gilas, kaya hanggang langit na lang ang tanggol. Oo nga naman, mawawalan siya ng kita.

LOL

And oh, by the way, sim-ple lang naman iyan. Flamebait other posters, and if gumanti, at di mo na kaya, o kaya umurong na bayag mo, pretend to try to make things go "back to the topic" kuno, para kung tanga yung Moderator, at di nakita kung sino nag umpisa, yung bumubugbog sa iyo sa forum ang malilintikan.

LOL

Akala ng low-quality IQ na kayang mang gago ng ibang forumer, kaso bumangga sa taong di niya kaya, kaya nagmamakaawa ng tumigil.

LOL

oca
11-27-2010, 08:52 PM
Imo, it is not proper to compare the SG results in this AG with previous AG.

The profile of our AG teams from 1990 to 2006 is completely different from 2010. This SG team is not PBA talent laden. It is unfair to compare the game of these fresh-out-of-collegiate league kids with those mature and experienced players of the PBA. Kahit na may 3 PBA player yan, the team is far from the caliber of teams from 1990 to 2006.

Imo, it is also wrong to compare AG results with FIBA-Asia results.

FIBA-Asia serves as qualifiers to the Olympics and FIBA-World, while the AG offers nothing more than precious metals of gold, silver and bronze. The current powerhouses in Asia can reluctantly field weakened line-ups at the AG, but are certain to have their main guns for the qualifiers.

How then are we to appraise this team?

SG went to the AG with the goal of making the semis and hopefully win a medal. They did not. That makes this campaign a failure based on their own stated goals.

yungha
11-27-2010, 08:55 PM
Using characterizations proves that you can't step up to my challenege. Is that what you were brought up, to run away from a discussion? :D

How can someone retrogress from 9th place to 6th place? Or will you be silent about it?

Where did I boast about beating Qatar? Scroll up and quote, if you can.

If you don't think it's delusional, explain how we can form a good team of 9 PBA players?

Will you admit that Iran didn't compete in 2002?

It's OK to say that you stand corrected. It really is. And it shows more wisdom than someone who keeps changing the topic and keeping his silence on his errors.

<last edited by rabbaddal to bait another pathetic answer> ;D



rab, just don't get baited into the name-calling and this thread won't deteriorate like it did a few weeks back.

let's see - so the top 5 are china, south korea, iran, japan and qatar. we should think of making the semis first in the fiba-asia. i think we can take out japan and qatar so that leaves us, china, south korea and iran. there are also wild cards like lebanon with fadi el khatib, jordan with its naturalized players and the always dangerous chinese taipei any of whom on a good day can likewise make it to the semis.

rabbaddal
11-27-2010, 09:09 PM
You must be getting desperate now that you've stooped down to using foul language. Seriously, acting like a kantoboy won't get you far in a discussion.

My questions can be answered in a straightforward way -

Can you prove that I boasted about beating Qatar? How can a team retrogress from 9th place to 6th place? Why isn't it delusional of you to thing that we can form a good team with 9 PBA players? Wasn't Iran absent in 2002? Wasn't Qatar a weak team in 2002?

You see? They are very simple to answer. If you know that you're wrong, just say that you stand corrected. Hindi mo kailangan daanin sa pagmumura. It's OK to do that kid, really.

rabbaddal
11-27-2010, 09:15 PM
let's see - so the top 5 are china, south korea, iran, japan and qatar. we should think of making the semis first in the fiba-asia. i think we can take out japan and qatar so that leaves us, china, south korea and iran. there are also wild cards like lebanon with fadi el khatib, jordan with its naturalized players and the always dangerous chinese taipei any of whom on a good day can likewise make it to the semis.


We can do it, but it's gonna be tough. To be more specific, we can land second or third and hope for the following - either we catch the #1 team on a bad day or FIBA gives us a wild card entry.

It can be done if we really want it that badly.

Use the same setup reinforced by these 4 PBA players - Asi, Kelly, Ryan (reloacing Sol) and Gabe (replacing Ballesteros or Barocca). Train together for the whole of the next year. If they will play overseas, they should only play agaisnt high-quality opponents like the ones in Serbia or Italy. Don't waste time playing against mediocre teams like what they did in their useless Australian expedition.

Downside is that it will undermine the development of young locals Aldrech, Balle and Barocca. More likely, it will hurt us over the long term.

rabbaddal
11-27-2010, 09:30 PM
The profile of our AG teams from 1990 to 2006 is completely different from 2010. This SG team is not PBA talent laden. It is unfair to compare the game of these fresh-out-of-collegiate league kids with those mature and experienced players of the PBA. Kahit na may 3 PBA player yan, the team is far from the caliber of teams from 1990 to 2006.


The last 2 PBA teams we sent out finished 7th and 9th. They could not beat Qatar and Jordan. Doon pa lang, it was obvious that the old arrangement wouldn't work. Smart Gilas did beat Qatar and previously, Jordan (all except one occasion in the case of Jordan). We haven't gone far lately with PBA talent-laden teams, unfortunately.

Schortsanitis
11-27-2010, 10:14 PM
How about, "this team is better because it beat Qatar, and that will finish 5th place, so we're going to London in 2012".

LOL

Hell, we're behind schedule. The key to having a great national team, is hire ten foreign coaches, and eleven years of a national team to win the Asian Games. And oh, let's insist on putting out college players to play against men while at it.

LOL

rabbaddal
11-27-2010, 10:46 PM
At least you've lost the foul language, kid. Hindi talaga mabuti yung ginagawa mong pagmumura sa seryosong usapan. Tsk tsk.

But you're still afraid to stick to the topic.

How can someone retrogress from 9th place to 6th place?

Where did I boast about beating Qatar? Scroll up and quote, if you can.

If you don't think it's delusional, explain how we can form a good team of 9 PBA players?

Will you admit that Iran didn't compete in 2002?

Will you just answer? O, baka umiyak ka ng "flaimbait" na naman? :D

Schortsanitis
11-28-2010, 01:55 AM
Mahirap talaga pag Janitorial level ang kukote, at obyus na nahihirapan umintindi sa binasa. Paano ka makakapaglaro ng siyam na players lang sa basketball, aber?

Isusulat mo, "core of 6-8 players", pag mahina ang kukote, sasabihin na ipinagpilitan na sinabi mo daw nine players lang ang ipadala.

LOL

Hanep sa pinagmamalaking "analysis" talaga, oo.

"Qatar" ng "Qatar", kahit tinalo na yung Gilas kaya 6th place lang ang inabot, "Qatar" pa rin daw.

LOL

rabbaddal
11-28-2010, 11:48 AM
That's delusional. The SBP had to pull teeth out of the PBA to lend 3 players for a month. Masama pa yun sa loob nila, 6 to 8 pa kaya. Is that what Yeng Guiao tweeted? :D

Saan ako "Qatar ng Qatar"? Can you quote me?

Yung iba kong mga tanong, bakit hindi mo sagutin kung hindi ka naduduwag?

At bakit ka nambabastos ng mga janitor? Iyan ba ang tinuro sa iyo ng mga magulang mo? Ganyan ka ba mag-post tuwing napipikon ka?

Hindi mo dapat insultuhin ang mga janitor kasi marunong silang mag-hanapbuhay ng tapat. Mas kahanga-hanga ang janitor kesa sa mga batang pasaway na nakakabili ng computer dahil binibigyan sila ng sustento ng kuya na nagna-nurse sa abrod. ;)

m_14
11-28-2010, 02:10 PM
ang galing talaga mag hugas kamay ni toroman, pinasa ky douthit yung atensyon Kung bakit Hindi sila nanalo sa Asian games para next tournament na sasalihan kay douthit na lahat ng sisi at Hindi na sa programa Nya

rabbaddal
11-28-2010, 02:16 PM
Douthit would've made a difference in games that they lost by close margins. The arrangement that he would be the starting center with Asi coming off the bench is a plus. He also has a higher FT percentage than Asi, so his guards will think twice before fouling him.

But he wouldn't make a difference in games that they lost by high margins; this I agree with.

Schortsanitis
11-28-2010, 03:23 PM
Anlakas ng loob na manghamon to "stick to the topic" daw, habang ugali na magpo poste ng mga argumentong paikot-ikot sa ibang mga forums.

LOL

"Qatar" pa ri ng "Qatar", habang pinapatay-malisya yung pagkatalo ng ginagatasan atang Smart Gilas sa Japan at South Korea. Yung South Korea at Japan na pinagtatalo natin nuon, nilalampaso yung Gilas na walang import, ipagpipilitang hindi pa rin daw na hindi "retrogression".

LOL

Ipagsigawan mo na lang na "stick to the topic", pag di mo na kayang tapusin yung sinimulan mong pang pe flamebait. "Sulong-Urong", ika nga. "Sulong", pero pag talo, biglang "Urong".

LOL

agdlc
11-28-2010, 03:30 PM
Can someone enlighten me as to the objectives of the Smart Gilas program?...


just to give a different perspective in light of the prevailing argument that has taken over this thread, nightowl's point i think echoes what everyone here is thinking, albeit in varying degrees.

point 1: truth is, smart gilas was not meant to dominate (obviously). take away all the discussions about placing in international competition, comparisons with other national teams, who they beat or by how much, etc. come on, a team with slaughter, tiu, casio, baracael and co. will be our ticket to the olympics? just being light-heartedly realistic here, no offense meant to these players or their supporters :) point 2: on the other hand, who can blame management for setting lofty goals? of course they will launch a program that reaches for the stars. we do not expect them to establish a philippine team that has a goal of "winning at least 3 games" in the AG.

taking these two points hand in hand, even early on in the developmental stages of SG you would have expected to be where we are right now. and the two expected reactions to the two points would be: 1) first, "bakit hindi nalang pba players ginamit?", and 2) "pag hindi tayo mag-olympics, failure and SG". which is what we've been reading here in this forum.

so to try and answer nightowl's initial question, what the goals of SG really is: it is a paradigm shift. putting it in extremely simple terms, there are two types of basketball involved in this issue: let's call one "nba basketball" and the other "fiba basketball". here in 'pinas, we play "nba" basketball. we grew up watching the nba, emulating the nba, and eventually playing like the nba. in the international competitions we want to compete in, they play "fiba" basketball.

for basketball enthusiasts, there are so many intricacies within the game that prevent a smooth transition between one type of basketball to the other. this is exemplified by the lack of dominance of team USA in the fiba worlds and the olympics, and also by the failure of great european players to thrive in the nba. yes, the US did win top honors in both. their elite athletic abilities helped them with that, elite athletic abilities SG does not possess.

so what happens when a country lives and breathes "nba" basketball throughout the years, then wants to compete and win in "fiba" basketball? well the old way of getting pro players who were so used to playing nba ball, and making them play fiba ball wasn't working. so someone said, "why don't we just get young players, keep them from playing nba ball, get a coach well versed with fiba ball to teach them how to play fiba ball for a couple of years, and see if it works?" hence, the paradigm shift. SG is like taking an alternate route to the desired destination. the money of course, would be compensation for these players. these players would have careers in the pba if they didn't play for SG.

> so is SG a failure? see point 1. yes it is, if you were (insert derogatory adjective) enough to truly believe that tiu and co. would be a dominant force in a short span of time.
> is SG better than our past national team? is there really a way to answer this definitively? is this really a significant question? both sucked. even if you prove that one is better than the other, that team would still suck and get beat.
> so what should the philippines do to be competitive in international basketball? this IS the question. my answer is to overhaul all the basketball programs in the country and adopt all fiba rules. fix the courts, change the rulebook, adjust the training from grade school level up to college, and transform the pba. that way, even at a young age, fiba ball will be ingrained into our players. in 20 years, i think we'll be good to go.
> and finally, do we really want to win at fiba basketball? like i said, we live and breathe nba basketball. we want to watch players who can dunk or do an ankle-breaker than watch players who are deadshots from 20 feet. why would we even want to join a fiba basketball tournament anyway? what is it that philippine basketball fans want?

bchoter
11-28-2010, 04:28 PM
How then are we to appraise this team?

SG went to the AG with the goal of making the semis and hopefully win a medal. They did not. That makes this campaign a failure based on their own stated goals.

There shouldn't be any arguments after this post. This, plus the stop-gap measures of including pros close to the 11th hour and naturalizing imports are failure signs. They should make changes somewhere.

nightowl
11-28-2010, 07:05 PM
agdlc, you got it right.

I just did not want to write too looooong, so I posed that question. The truth is, I am a basketball fan, and have enjoyed our games here, specially the university games. If we filipinos like our basketball, and the PBA gives our college players a chance to make some money/play for pay after college, why even try to change things?

Is it so we can challenge the best in the world? What I do not agree with, agldc, is that changing things, programs, etc. will make us world challengers. We still have to contend with the number 1 criteria (for me, anyway) to be a world power in basketball: SIZE. We don't have it and maybe we never will. Not only do we need some 7 footers to man the paint, and 6-8 to 6-10 wings, plus some 6-3 to 6-6 back court men, we need a LOT OF THEM, so we can choose the best. That means a pool of long, tall, BIG, athletic, can jump over-the-moon players.

Other countries have thousands (maybe millions?, like China, the US, etc.) of their citizens to choose from. How many have we got?

We can naturalize a couple of big men, find some fil-foreigners who are fairly good players (but not NBA caliber, else we won't see them over here!!!), bring in Casio, Tiu, Barroca and Baracael, and we still won't make it to the top 10 in the world-agree?

What happened to the college players, ripe-for-the-PBA players that SG started out with? We only have a handful left, replaced by fil-ams and fil-am PBA players, and soon, Douthit. Half of the national team, the people don't even know. These guys will hightail it out of here as soon as their playing days are over-which is also true for many of the fil-ams in the PBA. We want these guys to represent the country?

Me, I'm ok with how the game is played right now. Maybe we'll never be the best in basketball in Asia, much less the world, but ok lang, if we enjoy our basketball.

The salary of one of the fil-ams could be the allowance for 10-20 of our poorly funded athletes/boxers. If we gave some decent funding for these athletes, maybe more of them will be willing to play/fight for flag and country. We're wasting resources here, but as I said, its HIS money. Can anyone guess how much money is being spent per year on Smart Gilas? That would be interesting.

rabbaddal
11-28-2010, 09:46 PM
Bakit mo sinasabing tapusin ko yung sinimulan ko eh ikaw yung unang nagpost ng “retrogression” sa thread na ito? Ikaw rin yung nagsabi na pinagmalaki ko raw yung natalo ng Pilipinas ang Qatar kaya sinabi ko sa iyo na i-quote mo ako. Yung mungkahi mong pwedeng magpahiram ng player ang PBA sa national team, tinanong ko lang kung bakit hindi delusional yan. Ikaw ang nagsimlula ng lahat niyan. Tsk tsk. Nahihilo ka na yata sa kaka dakdak mo.

Let’s take your analogy with South Korea and Japan. If you think that beating them is a basis for comparing Smart Gilas, then why did the Philippines finish 7th and 9th in 2007 and 2009? It lost to Korea both times and was outranked by Japan in 2007? O, baka tahimik ka na naman?

Ayan kasi ang nangyayari tuwing dinadaan mo ang usapan sa pagmumura at pagmamaliit sa mga matatapat na naghahanapbuhay tulad ng janitor. Ikaw tuloy ang sumesemplang.

O sige na, kelan mo sasagutin yung mga tanong ko?

rabbaddal
11-28-2010, 10:18 PM
There shouldn't be any arguments after this post. This, plus the stop-gap measures of including pros close to the 11th hour and naturalizing imports are failure signs. They should make changes somewhere.




> so is SG a failure? see point 1. yes it is, if you were (insert derogatory adjective) enough to truly believe that tiu and co. would be a dominant force in a short span of time.
> is SG better than our past national team? is there really a way to answer this definitively? is this really a significant question? both sucked. even if you prove that one is better than the other, that team would still suck and get beat.
> and finally, do we really want to win at fiba basketball? like i said, we live and breathe nba basketball. we want to watch players who can dunk or do an ankle-breaker than watch players who are deadshots from 20 feet. why would we even want to join a fiba basketball tournament anyway? what is it that philippine basketball fans want?



We can naturalize a couple of big men, find some fil-foreigners who are fairly good players (but not NBA caliber, else we won't see them over here!!!), bring in Casio, Tiu, Barroca and Baracael, and we still won't make it to the top 10 in the world-agree?

What happened to the college players, ripe-for-the-PBA players that SG started out with? We only have a handful left, replaced by fil-ams and fil-am PBA players, and soon, Douthit. Half of the national team, the people don't even know. These guys will hightail it out of here as soon as their playing days are over-which is also true for many of the fil-ams in the PBA. We want these guys to represent the country?

Me, I'm ok with how the game is played right now. Maybe we'll never be the best in basketball in Asia, much less the world, but ok lang, if we enjoy our basketball.


SG definitely is better than our past national teams since NCC (which is still the Philippine standard of success). We missed the 2006 Doha games so the PBA didn’t see the ascension of the middle eastern countries. By 2007, it was plain and obvious that PBA teams couldn’t cope. Smart Gilas proved in 2 years that it can compete with all middle eastern countries except Iran.

Now, as to the more philosophical issue of whether this is something Filipinos want. You are right, Philippines won’t be top 10 in the world anytime soon. But they would be happy seeing the country place in the top 3 in Asia on a consistent basis and qualifying in the Olympics. Recall the fierce rivalry with Korea in the 60s and 70s. There are Pinoys who find it entertaining to see old scores settled. Recall also the 80s when the NCC program was formed and there was an initial outrage over the use of naturalized players and fil-ams like Ricardo Brown and Pearson. People eventually started rallying around the NCC team after they won the ABC and Jones Cup and competed well in the world inter-club.

Maybe there are some quarters who will not be satisfied with SG even if they do make it to the Olympics because of their aversion to imports and fil-fors supplanting the locals. Never mind that one of the greatest batches of home-grown players including Caidic, Patrimonio, Samboy, Codinera, Paras and Magsanoc was produced under the wings of naturalized players. They will never be satisfied no matter what. But that’s fine. Each country will have its own nationalist quarters and they can always watch the PBA.



The salary of one of the fil-ams could be the allowance for 10-20 of our poorly funded athletes/boxers. If we gave some decent funding for these athletes, maybe more of them will be willing to play/fight for flag and country. We're wasting resources here, but as I said, its HIS money. Can anyone guess how much money is being spent per year on Smart Gilas? That would be interesting.


I’ll give a rough estimate. It could be around P30M/year, which is the annualized cost of the centennial team adjusted for inflation over the past 12 years. It’s also not correct to assume that our boxers are poorly funded. In fact, they are very well funded for the most part (most recently by MVP). They are sent to train in Cuba and Russia every year, with few Olympic medals to show for – none since Roel Velasco. Should we cut boxing’s funds now because of that? Or should we continue to work with the program until we finally win medals again?

yungha
11-28-2010, 10:54 PM
i agree that pinoys would be happy regaining our place as asia's best. almost any national team-related article you read mentions how we were once the best in the continent and how good we were back in the good old days. a consistent medal semis finish, to be a medal threat in every asia-level tournament we enter, to qualify every once in a while for the olympics or the worlds and not concede the asia slots to china and iran everytime, i think would satisfy most basketball-crazy pinoys.

nightowl, yes we have ballhandling wizards, spectacular dunkers and players who can sink magical shots in the pba but it stops being entertaining when you notice how deficient we are at fundamentals, how weak we are in the technical aspect of the game. we can master the arts of proper ballhandling, footwork, shooting with either hand, spacing, boxing out, defense, playmaking, passing, shooting, etc and still provide entertaining basketball. if we master the fundamentals we improve our craft and make us more competitive internationally, and i don't think the improved brand of play will turn off the discerning pinoy hoop fan.

arwind santos elicits a lot of oohs and aahs for his high-flying moves in the pba. in last year's jones cup, though, the american commentators called him a "not too bright" player, saying he's "dribbling and dribbling, but he's not really going anywhere." yan ang masakit sa mata, and not really entertaining.

bchoter
11-28-2010, 11:21 PM
did they achieve what they sat out to do? no. then they failed.

my issue is not just the inclusion of pros and the naturalization of imports. it's the late inclusion of pros and the bungling of the choice of a naturalized import is the issue here. not just the

rabbaddal
11-28-2010, 11:46 PM
did they achieve what they sat out to do? no. then they failed.

my issue is not just the inclusion of pros and the naturalization of imports. it's the late inclusion of pros and the bungling of the choice of a naturalized import is the issue here. not just the


Of ocurse, competitors can fail in games. It doesn't mean the program is failing. Those are 2 different things. The strategy of sending PBA teams, now that was failing after starting well.

Maristela Torres failed. So did Roberto Jalnaiz, Harry Tanaflor (a world champion who bungled in the Olympics), Tac Padilla, Monseur del Rosario and a whole slew of promising athletes. The reality is that even proven medal winners can bungle sometimes. Should we scrap the ABAP program now that we haven't won an Olympic medal in more than a decade? But a country that wants to win keeps its programs intact - albeit making adjustments continuously - until in can harvest success.

pio_valenz
11-29-2010, 12:45 AM
My two cents:

- I agree with Oca. It's not accurate to compare the AG with the FIBA-Asia. Everyone takes the FIBA-Asia seriously. Countries send their best players. The same cannot be said about the Guangzhou competition. China and Iran were missing their NBA players. Lebanon, a legitimate top three Asian team, didn't even bother to field a team. Korea and Japan, two teams that beat us, were also incomplete. So the "improvement" from 9th (actually Yeng Guiao's crew finished 8th) to 6th is not an apples to apples comparison. The competition at the AG was inferior comapred to what we regularly see in the FIBA-Asia.

- I'm not sure what to make of the Smart Gilas program at this point. Are they really headed in the right direction? Every year you see some members quit to join the PBA, so right there you have to wonder about continuity. And when they aren't turning pro, they're getting bumped off by Fil-ams and end up quitting in frustration. Now it's PBA players who are taking the slots of guys who have been practicing with the team for the past couple of years. What's the point in training guys like Aldrech Ramos and Dylan Ababou for two years if they're just gonna be replaced at the last minute in a tournament that isn't even a qualifier for any FIBA event? It took Toroman that long to realize Ramos and Ababou weren't good enough?

rabbaddal
11-29-2010, 01:27 AM
AG is not inferior to FIBA Asia except for the absence of Lebanon. Those teams at the top have well-run programs so you can still execute their systems with replacement players. Seriously, Yeng’s team won’t be able to beat this year’s IRI, ROK and PROC teams. His team couldn’t even beat Jordan, a team that Gilas beat on most of their encounters. So there’s enough information to actually compare past PBA lineups with Gilas and Gilas comes out better. Still not good enough versus Asia’s elite but better than the past teams we’ve been sending, considering they have players who are 2 years out of college.

As for the direction, remember Toroman came from Iran where nobody dared to question the establishment. He could get players on the rough and train them for as long as it takes until they became good enough. Some of his wards were soccer players in the military! So there’s truth to thinking that Ababou and Ramos could be good enough; maybe not as fast as Lassiter could develop but they could get there. In the Philippines, his timeframe for “success” was much shorter. People wanted their AG medal and the SBP caved in. Even the 2012 Olympics was not on the table until later. The only way they could do this was to inundate the team with fil-fors and sideline some of the locals. It’s regrettable in a way, because Ramos could be a future Dignadice and Ababou, another Caidic or Solis.

Which is why I think NCC is still the ideal model. Like Iran and China, the NCC honchos cared less about what the public thought and ran the program as they saw fit until it yielded results.

nightowl
11-29-2010, 07:31 AM
Saludar just won gold at the AG, so boxing is alive and well, thanks to the funding and training. Can you imagine if say, P10 M of the basketball budget was plowed into the boxing program? How many more boxers can we 'take care of', with that money. Boxing always manages to make the olympics, and has been our best possible medal hope for the longest time.

Improving the program-and more money will always help-may just get us over the hump. I'm talking about finding diamonds in the rough, and molding them to be champions. Our boxers come from the poorest families in the Philippines; their monthly allowance is but 3-5% what a top basketball player makes.

The 'bumping off' of local, pure pinoys by fil-ams both from the PBA and new recruits; this seems to be totally opposite to what the SG program was supposed to accomplish, which was to keep young, promising basketball players together for many years, and develop them for international competition. We're now back to raiding/pleading with the PBA to 'lend' their players to the National Team. The SG program was supposed to wean the National Team away from dependence on the PBA!

So what happens now to Aldrech and dylan, and all the other locals who have been dropped/bumped off the SG program? That also includes many others now in the PBA, notably Al-Hussaini(who is doing very well) ang Guevarra and Jazul. PBA na lang, and the National Team can borrow them later on, when needed.

It seems like the Smart Gilas program is veering away from their original plan, and heading right back to our stop-gap measures. This after only 2+ years.

rabbaddal
11-29-2010, 08:43 AM
Saludar just won gold at the AG, so boxing is alive and well, thanks to the funding and training. Can you imagine if say, P10 M of the basketball budget was plowed into the boxing program? How many more boxers can we 'take care of', with that money. Boxing always manages to make the olympics, and has been our best possible medal hope for the longest time.

Improving the program-and more money will always help-may just get us over the hump. I'm talking about finding diamonds in the rough, and molding them to be champions. Our boxers come from the poorest families in the Philippines; their monthly allowance is but 3-5% what a top basketball player makes.


In the case of AG boxing, medals are not really new for the Philippines. At least not until many Asian countries eventually catch up. ABAP’s target since the 1980s has always been an Olympic gold medal which has been elusive thus far. Also, they do get a lot of money. They have lots of money for training and for a long time, they had a bigger budget than basketball. Saludar, in particular, will get millions for his feat. Our boxing team had Cuban coaches (Pacheco, Liranza, etc.) and foreign stints, including training in Cuba and Europe, long before there was an SBP. They’re already getting as much money as they need to succeed. The problem with boxing has more to do with the lure of the pros.



The 'bumping off' of local, pure pinoys by fil-ams both from the PBA and new recruits; this seems to be totally opposite to what the SG program was supposed to accomplish, which was to keep young, promising basketball players together for many years, and develop them for international competition. We're now back to raiding/pleading with the PBA to 'lend' their players to the National Team. The SG program was supposed to wean the National Team away from dependence on the PBA!

So what happens now to Aldrech and dylan, and all the other locals who have been dropped/bumped off the SG program? That also includes many others now in the PBA, notably Al-Hussaini(who is doing very well) ang Guevarra and Jazul. PBA na lang, and the National Team can borrow them later on, when needed.

It seems like the Smart Gilas program is veering away from their original plan, and heading right back to our stop-gap measures. This after only 2+ years.


I am also disappointed at how young, promising amateurs were sidelined from the program to accommodate pros. But let’s look at it in another way. What would’ve happened if we sent a team composed entirely of the original cash of Tiu, Casio, Greg, Balle and Barocca? I don’t think we’d finish anywhere close to 6th. Could Filipino fans stomach that? I don’t think so. It looks like the SBP is a little too responsive of public opinion to its own detriment.

The good thing though is that with a Gilas program continuously in place, improvements can be made along the way. Maybe they can expand the program to include a team B composed of developmental players like they do in Iran and China. Or they can avoid playing useless pickup games in places like Australia and focus their time more on places where they can get better competition, like Europe or Brazil. Or they can tell the public to take a hike and stick to a non-PBA lineup. There are many possibilities with a program in place, unlike the old setup with the PBA where teams got disbanded and nothing happens until 5 months before the next tournament.

bluegreen
11-29-2010, 09:34 AM
final 74 66 kor


This will be the Philippines worst finish in the Asian Games since 1978.

Need we say more about the "program?"


Right from the start, this is a team whose main goal is to qualify for the 2012 Olympics and not the 2010 Asian Games. If it does not qualify in 2012 then and only then should it be considered of not meeting its goal.


Ha ha ha, are you kidding bro?

The two main competitions related to qualifying for the 2012 Olympics in London is the Asian Games and the FIBA Asia tournament next year - the Asian Games because you will play the teams that you will also play in the FIBA Asia Tournament, the qualifier for the Olympics wherein we have to place in the TOP TWO,or in short, make it into the Finals.

We should be at the very least fighting in the Semi-Finals of the Asian Games if we want to have an outside chance to make it to London, as a build up to the FIBA Asia which is early next year.

That's the problem with having FilAms, FilForeigners or FilShams on our National Team.

Not to mention a Foreign Coach with a questionable past, and a "who they?" bunch of assistants. Toroman has produced the worst finish by a Philippine Team in the Asian Games ever in our history in the games. All true Filipino Coaches before him, plus Tim Cone, all did better with less resources and less preparation than this team.

And you think this team will qualify for the Olympics? Ha ha! It's a pipe dream buddy.

The passion, the drive, the "puso" to win for the country is just NOT there with these players. Maybe our truly Filipino players like Casio, Tiu, Barroca wanted to win but if the bigs don't have the heart, what can the others do.

Masakit isipin but Smart Gilas has been nothing but a "pera-pera" operation. The money thrown on these guys and spent on the "program" is disgusting, and this is what we all get in return.

Nakakhiya at nakakasuka.





you said that asian games and fiba asia are the two closest competition for qualifying in the olympics. yes, you are right there. but, losing in this asian games will not really affect our chances in qualifying. fiba asia lang naman ang tunay na qualifying tournament e. in that case, the asian games can even serve as a way of checking our opponents. yes, we lost. but, at the end of the day, olympics ang goal ng Smart Gilas.

i also feel bad that our team lost. siyempre team natin yun e. pero, we just need to support them lalo na't talo na sila. pilipino ang mga iyan.

on your accusations of not playing with "puso", i think this is very relative and we can just accuse the team. anyone can say that pero you cannot find proofs. puro ad hominem lang ang nangyayari e. marami sa players na yan ang may choice mag-PBA, marami na ang gumawa niyan (al-hussaine, et al), pero marami pa rin ang naiwan.

of course, they do not have the best talent out there because it's in the pba but they are trying their best to make a real team with continuity. hindi lang rag-tag-all-star teams.

on losing to qatar, it does not mean na matalo man natin ang isang team ay tatalunin na sila lagi. what you did not see is the close competition they gave. close ang games ng gilas at if they continue their development, makukuha at makukuha rin yan.

i understand your feelings but be objective. masyado kang emotional e. ;D




can't help but be emotional bro, its our country and our national pride at stake.

i represented the country before, won a medal for the Philippines, and was involved with 2 national teams in the asian games.

these guys do not have the heart for it, plain and simple, from my point of view and past experience .... medyo obvious, unlike our other national athletes who are much less funded (or not funded) but have won medals.

that's where I am coming from. Peace!

bchoter
11-29-2010, 09:39 AM
Rab, was Smart Gilas able to accomplish their Asiang Games goal? Let's jsut stick to that. Let's not compare them to other Asian Games squads. Or to other sports disciplines. Do you want them to go the same route; pick pros at the last minute, rely on Fil-Ams, and Imports?

rabbaddal
11-29-2010, 10:00 AM
/\/\

What's there to talk about then? Everyone here's unanimous in their disappointment and honestly think that SG should've made it to the semis. But it didn't happen. Lots of athletes miss their goals. It's one thing to say that a team failed, it's another thing to say a program is failing (when in fact it is doing better). Comparisons were made only to disprove that they have "retrogressed", as opposed to having failed to reach their goal.

So what do we do now? Only other realistic choice is to go back to the old setup of forming PBA teams months before a tournament. Do you know of any other possibilities? I want them to go the same route - having a program running 12 months a year. With that, they can experiment with anything along the way including getting pros, fil-fors, all-filipino, all-amateur, etc. If something doesn't work, then change it until they get it right. They can do anything because there is something in the works.

Joescoundrel
11-29-2010, 10:34 AM
How about we do what USA Basketball is doing, i.e. get a firm and long-term commitment from ALL the pros that they will train and work and sacrifice to be together as a TEAM.

All of our best basketball players are in the PBA. That therefore is where we should be getting the players to represent the country in international tournaments. SBP and PBA should work something out.

I'd make any player who's been in the PBA at least three seasons, and is no more than 30 years of age at the time, is eligible to see National Team duty anytime they are called.

I'd also have the PBA mandate no more than one practice per day for all teams, so that whoever has a national player on their roster doesn't run these guys ragged.

PBA teams normally just practice once daily anyway, so let the players selected for national team duty practice all together as a pool daily as well. Two-a-day practices isn't something new for players anyway. And if you're good enough to be in the PBA, then you shouldn't be complaining about twice-a-days, especially if the other one is for the National Team. Forming a PBA selection even an entire year before a specific major tournament makes no sense. We need a pool of maybe 35-40 PBA players willing to hang together for the long haul.

You wanted to make a career of basketball, here's your wish coming true then.

rabbaddal
11-29-2010, 10:57 AM
How about we do what USA Basketball is doing, i.e. get a firm and long-term commitment from ALL the pros that they will train and work and sacrifice to be together as a TEAM.



Joe, as I've posted before in this thread, it isn't going to happen. It just won't. The PBA went through the eye of the needle just to lend one player for the Stankovic Cup, what more 12? You could read between the half-hearted, evasive statements of various PBA governors (except for a few) that they were not in a hurry to commit full time all the way for the national team. If they had done this long ago, there would not have been a need for Smart Gilas.

I remember the clamor back in 1990, when we finished with a silver, to keep the team together for the Olympic qualifiers the next year. That was our best chance to qualify, given our strong placing in the Asiad. What did the PBA do? Instead of siezing the opportunity, they haughtily told the BAP (which had its own failures itself) that they are only binded to competing in the Asiad and nothing else, while hiding their grins. If ever they'll participate, it will come with corners being cut like forming teams 5 months before and practicing 3 times a week.

bchoter
11-29-2010, 11:06 AM
Rab, is it ok then to continue with what they did: make an unsystematic attempt to locate Fil-Ams, pick pros at the last minute, and then naturalize an import?

Pasnesya na rabs but I'm process AND output oriented. You may have a well defined process if it doesn't achieve its expected result then one must make changes with the process. You may have achieved your goal but if your process isn't "repeatable" then luck must have had a lot to do with it, like landing the right players at the right time (*cough* 2006 *cough* Tigers... ouch, ouch, ouch).

The kids are supposed to be in for the long haul but a number have left for the pros. Some have been replaced by players not in the pool. Imports come and go. Worse, some imports even have something bad to say about the management of the team.

This is not the time to push the panic button. But there is a need for changes. Not minor ones but not earth-shaking either, at this point.

rabbaddal
11-29-2010, 11:32 AM
But bchoter, if you're output oriented, then you must think about alternatives. You can't scratch this off from your analysis. Like I said, the only other realistic alternative is to send another all pro team with 4-5 mos preps. Do you want to replace Smart Gilas with that?

Now, as I said, I want them to continue with a full time program 12 months a year, year-after-year.

What they do during that process is entirely up to them. If something doesn't work (like last min inclusion of PBA players), then they can stop doing it and try something else. Keep trying until they get it right.

As for using imports, we're just using one. We really need an import to fill in the center spot because having a competent center is crucial to Toroman's system of sinking 3s to draw out the defense and letting the center do his work inside. That way, we can take advantage of the weaknesses of PROC, ROK, LEB and JOR. There's no other way if we want to make this work.

You are correct about your reservations about the imports' commitment, but you can still manage this by finding an import who is willing to play with his heart for the country, at least during official tournaments. Remember how Dennis Still and Chip Engelland gave their all against their native country during the Jones Cup finals. Maybe Douthit will be like them; if not, let's find someone else. It still beats forming a ragtag pro team.

agdlc
11-29-2010, 12:06 PM
hmm, so if i understand it, the main problems we are encountering so far are:

- the original pool of players SG started out with years ago clearly lacked the talent to achieve the goals they set
- toroman had wanted to incorporate pba players into the program long ago but didn't get the cooperation of the pba for various reasons
- toroman resorted to getting fil-ams/ foreigners to bridge the gap of talent between SG at that time and SG he wanted to have (as a result, some original SG players were pushed off from the team)
- mvp moved players to his pba franchise in order to lend them to toroman
- most recently, some pba players were finally "lent" to SG causing definite chemistry issues

maybe it's not a SG failure. maybe it's a SG-PBA failure.

point is, the national team needs to play good fiba basketball AND needs foreign blood as a team of pure pinoy players trained here just won't hack it (and since the college and amateur ranks do not have a large pool of foreigners to choose from for obvious reasons) i think that SG and the pba need each other, and until that relationship is established, olympic aspirations have to be tempered. then again, why lend your "nba ball"- playing star in an "nba ball"-hungry market to a "fiba ball" team? that just isn't good business. a 20-year plan of overhauling basketball in the country coupled with eugenetics should work.

rabbaddal
11-29-2010, 01:03 PM
hmm, so if i understand it, the main problems we are encountering so far are:

- the original pool of players SG started out with years ago clearly lacked the talent to achieve the goals they set
- toroman had wanted to incorporate pba players into the program long ago but didn't get the cooperation of the pba for various reasons
- toroman resorted to getting fil-ams/ foreigners to bridge the gap of talent between SG at that time and SG he wanted to have (as a result, some original SG players were pushed off from the team)
- mvp moved players to his pba franchise in order to lend them to toroman
- most recently, some pba players were finally "lent" to SG causing definite chemistry issues


They only started a little over 2 years ago. I don’t think they lacked talent. Players like Casio, Tiu, Baracael, Ababou and Ramos are talented, but inexperienced. Unfortunately, there’s no shortcut to developing experience. You just have to go out and keep playing in top international games for years to get it and yes, you will lose at first. Fil-fors have long been part of the fabric of Philippine basketball so it wouldn’t be right to exclude them or consider them as “stop gap” measures. They are very much in play as the native-born are.

The inclusion of 3 current PBA players are stop gap measures though. Apparently the SBP and their corporate patrons in the Smart group deduced much later that Filipino basketball fans won’t have the stomach to take early losses in return for wins down the road, so they had to find a way to try and win today. They also had some problems at the start which delayed the full rollout of the program, like the issues with CJ and Jamal, the absence of some key players in their overseas pickup games, and the delay in the arrival of Lutz. They also did not form a competitive team B from the start, which left them scrambling for replacements whenever someone got injured. An allowance for startup problems should’ve been made but this wasn’t done.

The good thing is that while the people in the SBP, including MVP, are not very good planners, they are good at learning from experience. Eventually (and gradually) they will come to terms with what doesn’t work and make the changes that are necessary.

Schortsanitis
11-29-2010, 04:02 PM
Pag di mo na kaya yung pang ga gago sa iyo dun sa PEx, punta ka na lang dito para maghanap ng kaaway. Tapos ipagpilitan mong ibenta yung pinagmamalaki mo na kelangan magtapon ng milyones sa loob ng isang dekada sa team, at kumuha ng foreign coaches kaliwa't-kanan para mag tsampiyon daw yung mga college players.

LOL

Pag mahina kukote at argumento mo, ipagpipilitan mo na lang na pareho ang resulta ng mga magkaka-ibang tournament, dala na ng desperasyon.

LOL

dioning
11-29-2010, 05:05 PM
Ang kailangan ng national team natin ay tall and athletic players who can shoot from the outside, defend and play rugged bordering on dirty ala combination Jawo-Onchie. Dapat sobra tapang at gulang! Kung baga patay kung patay, matira ang matibay. Para at least kahit na talo tayo e nabukulan at nabira natin ng matindi ang mga dayuhang kalaban. MABUHAY ANG PILIPINAS!

yungha
11-29-2010, 10:49 PM
They only started a little over 2 years ago. I don’t think they lacked talent. Players like Casio, Tiu, Baracael, Ababou and Ramos are talented, but inexperienced...



i look at al-hussaini now, a rookie averaging a double-double for a respectable team, a guy who's had scoring games of 31 and 25 pts, and i think - this guy was a scrub for smart gilas, a guy who was lucky to score 2 pts in a game. granted he came in late but he had a year to get acclimatized with toroman's system.

then there's japeth, who had something like 11pts 8rebs 4 blocks in his one and only pro game without the benefit of even a single practice with his team.

then there's chris who flirted with triple double games twice vs pba teams and this was after cj giles had left.

so in terms of talent, there's definitely plenty of talent by local standards. by international standards, though, maliit talaga. but smart gilas is definitely a talented team that has already achieved a level of cohesion and familiarity. and i agree with rab that there's no way a pba all-star team with 4 months preparation can do better than this, or do better next year at the fiba-asia.

which leads us to a more sobering thought - what if, whatever we do, whether we stick with the program or go back to tapping pros, this is as good as it gets?

rabbaddal
11-30-2010, 01:19 AM
Cussing and using foul language only proves that you are losing the argument, mr. "retrogression". If you can't get away with trying to change the topic, don't try to cuss your way out. It doesn't work. ;)

So where are your answers?

How can they retrogress when their rankings improved?

Where did I boast about beating Qatar? Please quote. I'm still waiting.

It's delusional to suggest forming a good PBA team. Disagree? Please elaborate.

Will you admit that Iran didn't compete in 2002?

Really, these are very easy to answer objectively without talking like a kantoboy. ;D

rabbaddal
11-30-2010, 01:33 AM
which leads us to a more sobering thought - what if, whatever we do, whether we stick with the program or go back to tapping pros, this is as good as it gets?


I actually think that over the longer term, the future looks bright in terms of talent. We have a huge pool of fil-fors to tap. Back in the 80s, our fil-fors were 6'3 and below and mainly shooters (Pearson, Brown). Today, we have more flexible, more prolific fil-fors like Mick and Asi. In the future, we can look at players like Christian Standhardinger, Ray Parks or Chris Banchero. We can produce another Arwynd Santos - tall guys who can play SG and SF. The only spot we can't fill up easily is the center position so we'll need to keep naturalizing.

What would be a tragedy is if these kinds of talent do spring out and there is no program to tap them and improve their abilities at the international level. Look at how we wasted opportunities to train and deploy EJ, Bonel, Marlou, Sam, Jovel, Danny, Renren, Wesley, Arwynd, Rich and so many others with potential. Imagine how the PBA would've looked like today if there was a Smart Gilas back then to take them under its wings and give them solid fundamentals.

Those are the kind of opportunities that we shouldn't allow to pass us today. Not now when we can train Casio and Tiu to direct plays instead of waiting to be set up for shots, Greg to man the slot and Baracael and Dylan to work with picks and shoot quick releases like Caidic.

agdlc
11-30-2010, 02:09 AM
They only started a little over 2 years ago. I don’t think they lacked talent. Players like Casio, Tiu, Baracael, Ababou and Ramos are talented...



while there is no doubt with regards to the talent of these guys you mentioned, there were also players like magi sison, ford arao, ryan buenafe, and rj jazul they started out with. setting a goal of making the olympics with this lineup might have been too optimistic - even with tons of experience. and again i'm not condemning SG for setting goals that reach for the stars. and i'm not condemning SG for failing to meet these goals. i'm not disagreeing with you. so far you have made the most sense in all of this. like i said, i don't think SG was really meant to succeed (meaning: to win) with that lineup and with the short amount of time. you are right, the program will really have to lose at first. there is no getting around that process. anyone who expected SG to sail smoothly into the olympics might still be disillusioned enough to start crucifying SG for getting their hopes up.

to address yungha's question: i think that picking between SG and tapping the pros will give finality to the problem at hand. someone really needs to sort out:
a) fiba or nba? we love nba basketball but we want to succeed at fiba basketball. we really can't reconcile the two, and it is just too much to ask the best players in our country to play both. if i were to rephrase this question... which one would we be prouder of while watching: a team of fil-foreigners playing in the olympics, OR a pure-blooded filipino playing in the nba? which brings me to the next point...
b) amateurs or pros = filipinos or foreigners. there's no getting around this. people have already been saying our gene pool wasn't designed to produce basketball players. i mean, most of the pros we are getting are foreigners anyway (with few exceptions like james yap and kerby). so is this a question of race? and if i were to rephrase this question... which one would we be prouder of watching: a team of fil-foreigners we barely know (i imply that they would be barely known since they would be committed to playing fiba ball, and not in the pba) who are bigger, faster, stronger OR a team of filipinos we've been watching since they were in high school give it that pinoys-never-back-down attitude despite having a slim chance of winning? what do filipino basketball fans really want?

* rabbaddal, sorry if it seems everyone here is ganging up on you. not everyone is here to bust your balls.

rabbaddal
11-30-2010, 04:05 AM
while there is no doubt with regards to the talent of these guys you mentioned, there were also players like magi sison, ford arao, ryan buenafe, and rj jazul they started out with. setting a goal of making the olympics with this lineup might have been too optimistic - even with tons of experience. and again i'm not condemning SG for setting goals that reach for the stars. and i'm not condemning SG for failing to meet these goals. i'm not disagreeing with you. so far you have made the most sense in all of this. like i said, i don't think SG was really meant to succeed (meaning: to win) with that lineup and with the short amount of time. you are right, the program will really have to lose at first. there is no getting around that process. anyone who expected SG to sail smoothly into the olympics might still be disillusioned enough to start crucifying SG for getting their hopes up.

* rabbaddal, sorry if it seems everyone here is ganging up on you. not everyone is here to bust your balls.


It's been fun actualy. Almost everyone has shared very insightful thoughts in a free and objective exchange of ideas without resorting to the use of foul language or marginalizations of fellow Pinoys.

Smart Gilas actually started off well at inception. They placed fifth in the FIBA Asia Champions Cup in about a year of their formation, and that was without a single PBA player in their lineup. However they got stuck up after CJ Giles' psychological issues started popping up, and after the SBP bungled the hiring of his replacement. That, compounded with injuries to key players and a series of in-hindsight bad decisions messed up their timetable. Had things gone smoothly from the beginning, or had they addressed the initial obstacles they encountered more prudently, then they would have been in more sound footing by now.

Among the things they could've done are:

a) Not to rush the signing of CJ until he proved to be a good fit first. I was a bit surprised at the haste with which they tried to sign him up. Some honchos were saying that if they didn't sign him ASAP, Lebanon would. He ended up costing the team far more then he was worth and he did end up joining Lebanon, only to be fired again.

b) Being a little more patient with Jamal. Sure, he had his pecularities, but he was also seemingly built for the team. And even if he tried to hustle his way into a deal, he wasn't psychotic like CJ. At the very least, they should've given in to his request to be paid to compete in the Dubai tournament. The team did very well in the few times that he played for them. To me at least, SBP could've exercised better judgement.

c) Form a solid team B. With a good team B, they could've found good replacements whenever someone got injured in the first team without tapping into the PBA and/or compromising chemistry. Iran and China, among others, do this which is why they could cope with the absence of key players like Hadadi, Bahrami and Yi.

d) Make sure all pickup games are against high-quality opponents. The trip to Australia and the PBA exhibitions were both a waste of time and money given their short timetable. Might have been better to have played in another European country (or against Korean club teams) instead.

They haven't really been that good in planning, but my sense is that they're good at learning from experience and will likely gradually make adjustments to the program.

bluegreen
11-30-2010, 09:18 AM
hmm, so if i understand it, the main problems we are encountering so far are:

- the original pool of players SG started out with years ago clearly lacked the talent to achieve the goals they set
- toroman had wanted to incorporate pba players into the program long ago but didn't get the cooperation of the pba for various reasons
- toroman resorted to getting fil-ams/ foreigners to bridge the gap of talent between SG at that time and SG he wanted to have (as a result, some original SG players were pushed off from the team)
- mvp moved players to his pba franchise in order to lend them to toroman
- most recently, some pba players were finally "lent" to SG causing definite chemistry issues


They only started a little over 2 years ago. I don’t think they lacked talent. Players like Casio, Tiu, Baracael, Ababou and Ramos are talented, but inexperienced. Unfortunately, there’s no shortcut to developing experience. You just have to go out and keep playing in top international games for years to get it and yes, you will lose at first. Fil-fors have long been part of the fabric of Philippine basketball so it wouldn’t be right to exclude them or consider them as “stop gap” measures. They are very much in play as the native-born are.

The inclusion of 3 current PBA players are stop gap measures though. Apparently the SBP and their corporate patrons in the Smart group deduced much later that Filipino basketball fans won’t have the stomach to take early losses in return for wins down the road, so they had to find a way to try and win today. They also had some problems at the start which delayed the full rollout of the program, like the issues with CJ and Jamal, the absence of some key players in their overseas pickup games, and the delay in the arrival of Lutz. They also did not form a competitive team B from the start, which left them scrambling for replacements whenever someone got injured. An allowance for startup problems should’ve been made but this wasn’t done.

The good thing is that while the people in the SBP, including MVP, are not very good planners, they are good at learning from experience. Eventually (and gradually) they will come to terms with what doesn’t work and make the changes that are necessary.



Big and good spenders too :o

Remember what Coach Ron Jacobs said before: "A good big taller basketball team will always beat a smaller shorter basketball team."

Go figure.

bchoter
11-30-2010, 09:27 AM
Output: didn't achieve their goal
Process:
1. Players chosen left for the pros
2. Players chosen were left out
3. Fil-AMs come in late
4. Imports chosen wouldn't stay

Ibig sabihn may gap pala ang talent assessment saka character assessment.

If they truly believe in their system, then they should stay the course. Why go the stop-gap route? Dahil takot mag fail? Their playing the political game again. There should be a timeline in getting replacements, ex. if the replacements can't join a certain number of months prior to a major tourney then AND they cannot stay on after that, then don't put them in at all. It just sets back the team in two ways: it offsets chemistry (on and off the court) AND it stunts the development of players.

Kunin nalang ni MVP ang lahat na suited sa National Squad sa mga PBA teams niya tapos ipahiram sa NT to be reinforced by non-pros para may continuity :D

yungha
11-30-2010, 09:33 AM
...
Kunin nalang ni MVP ang lahat na suited sa National Squad sa mga PBA teams niya tapos ipahiram sa NT to be reinforced by non-pros para may continuity :D


tama! :D anyway dalawa naman team niya, plus maybe one more next year.

bchoter
11-30-2010, 09:34 AM
stop-gap = band-aid solution. It's got nothing to do with the player's roots. If they want Fil-Ams then get Fil-Ams early in the preparation. Same thing with imports and pros. What's the use of keeping a pool when you pick up players outside of the pool. Para saan pa yung sinasabing advantage of being together kung kukuha ng hindi naman "together"? That, in itself, is an ingredient for failure.

The_Big_Cat
11-30-2010, 09:37 AM
Output: didn't achieve their goal
Process:
1. Players chosen left for the pros
2. Players chosen were left out
3. Fil-AMs come in late
4. Imports chosen wouldn't stay

Ibig sabihn may gap pala ang talent assessment saka character assessment.

If they truly believe in their system, then they should stay the course. Why go the stop-gap route? Dahil takot mag fail? Their playing the political game again. There should be a timeline in getting replacements, ex. if the replacements can't join a certain number of months prior to a major tourney then AND they cannot stay on after that, then don't put them in at all. It just sets back the team in two ways: it offsets chemistry (on and off the court) AND it stunts the development of players.

Kunin nalang ni MVP ang lahat na suited sa National Squad sa mga PBA teams niya tapos ipahiram sa NT to be reinforced by non-pros para may continuity :D


This is what I've been saying 4 pages ago. Players coming-in and coming-out of the pool. This ruins the chemistry and cohesion of a team.

rabbaddal
11-30-2010, 09:43 AM
Big and good spenders too :o

Remember what Coach Ron Jacobs said before: "A good big taller basketball team will always beat a smaller shorter basketball team."

Go figure.


Kaya nga nagrerecruit ng matangkad.

bchoter
11-30-2010, 09:46 AM
Rab, I hope you know it's not about you even if it looks like we're ganging up on you. Habaan mo pa pasensiya mo ;)

gameFaceAdmin
11-30-2010, 09:52 AM
Hi gamefacers. May we just reiterate again the previous warning we posted. If there are malicious attacks on the person, the same shall be subjected to the rules as posted.

We suggest that if you have a malicious message to air out to a specific member, use the PM functionality. Also, if you think there is a dead end already just respect the dissenting opinions and just leave them as they are.

Thanks.

rabbaddal
11-30-2010, 09:56 AM
Output: didn't achieve their goal
Process:
1. Players chosen left for the pros
2. Players chosen were left out
3. Fil-AMs come in late
4. Imports chosen wouldn't stay

Ibig sabihn may gap pala ang talent assessment saka character assessment.

If they truly believe in their system, then they should stay the course. Why go the stop-gap route? Dahil takot mag fail? Their playing the political game again. There should be a timeline in getting replacements, ex. if the replacements can't join a certain number of months prior to a major tourney then AND they cannot stay on after that, then don't put them in at all. It just sets back the team in two ways: it offsets chemistry (on and off the court) AND it stunts the development of players.

Kunin nalang ni MVP ang lahat na suited sa National Squad sa mga PBA teams niya tapos ipahiram sa NT to be reinforced by non-pros para may continuity :D


Of course it is a political game. That goes with almost all sports in the Philippines (including the UAAP and NCAA). The good thing is that the SBP leadership is more professional than most other NSAs, and certainly more than the BAP. If something about the strategy doesn't work, they will fix it. Yun lang nga, they're in a "learn by experience" mode. Matututo lang sila kapag napaso. I'd rather live with that than the old setup.




stop-gap = band-aid solution. It's got nothing to do with the player's roots. If they want Fil-Ams then get Fil-Ams early in the preparation. Same thing with imports and pros. What's the use of keeping a pool when you pick up players outside of the pool. Para saan pa yung sinasabing advantage of being together kung kukuha ng hindi naman "together"? That, in itself, is an ingredient for failure.


Fil-ams and imports were already part of the program early in the process. With imports, remember CJ? Unfortunately they had to fire him, and they subsequently screwed up on Jamal's recruitment so the timing got delayed.

As for fil-ams, Lassiter and Slaughter were in early. It was only Lutz that joined at a later stage but that was planned. However, given that they are rushing to qualify for the Olympics, they may bring in more fil-ams to replace locals who cannot develop fast enough. For example, Barocca might lose his place to Banchero. Let's see.

Overall, it was just the PBA players who were brought in on short notice.

My guess is that going into the Olympic qualifiers, they might make more stop gap measures and bring in more big guns. But after that, they'll settle back into development mode again.

agdlc
11-30-2010, 12:36 PM
stop-gap = band-aid solution. It's got nothing to do with the player's roots. If they want Fil-Ams then get Fil-Ams early in the preparation. Same thing with imports and pros. What's the use of keeping a pool when you pick up players outside of the pool. Para saan pa yung sinasabing advantage of being together kung kukuha ng hindi naman "together"? That, in itself, is an ingredient for failure.


maybe not necessarily. you are completely right though, that adjusting lineups that late in the day IS an ingredient for failure- no question about it. i'm just taking it a step further and adding that, maybe in this case, it isn't as bad as we think.

the premise was building cohesion --> a coach was hired, a team was assembled, a system was set in place. adding key pieces to an already established system will transition more smoothly than gathering a group of players from scratch (similar to our past national teams). granted that SG added these key pieces too late, we have to consider that toroman HAD wanted to inject pros early on but the pba made it difficult for SG. and when the time came that these players were made available to SG, however late it was, the choice was made between: adding only three key pieces to a system that was in place OR running the gauntlet with aldrech ramos instead of kelly williams, ababou for sol mercado, ballesteros for asi, etc. the former was chosen hence our current status, but if the latter was chosen, people would just as easily have complained: eh bakit hindi pa pinasali yung pba players, yan tuloy talo na naman and we would have been discussing that, not this.

agdlc
11-30-2010, 12:54 PM
Output: didn't achieve their goal
Process:
1. Players chosen left for the pros
2. Players chosen were left out
3. Fil-AMs come in late
4. Imports chosen wouldn't stay


if the beef is with SG players leaving for the pros, or some chosen were left out, i think those are the rules of the game. players like rondo or arenas were cut from their national team when they were on top of their game. players get cut all the time. rondo may have been the best pg in the nba last season but he was cut from the "b-deem team" because of lack of range. similarly, rabeh was cut and went to the pba (where he's tearing it up right now) because they almost never run iso's in fiba. besides, if chemistry is a problem, i think rabeh's documented personality traits might have been seen as a hindrance to team togetherness.

you are right, there should be a timeline for adding/removing players. although we try to rationalize these moves by SG, in no way do they serve as excuses- they are mere explanations. unfortunately for us, there is no single explanation that will console everyone's disappointment.

oca
11-30-2010, 02:41 PM
Minsang nabanggit pero kulang sa diin kaya babalikan ko lang.

Napag-isip ba ng mga taong nasa likod ng programa ng SG, nang hindi nila isinama sa AG line-up sina Ababou at Ramos ay para na rin nilang binigyan ng dahilan ang mga homegrown players na wala pa sa PBA na huwag tanggapin ang ano mang imbitasyon na mapasama sa SG?

Tanda ko pa yung NCC program na siya ring model ng SG. May napasama sa programang magagaling na players ng Cebu sina Anthony Mendoza at Al Solis na parehong nagtagal sa Team B hanggang umakyat sa PBA. Kaya nang imbitahan sina Lastimosa at Ampalayo, hindi man lang nagdalawang isip at sila ay tumanggi at mas ginusto pa mag-PBA agad. Ayaw matulad kina Mendoza at Solis na naburo sa Team B.

Meron bang gustong matulad kina Ababou at Ramos?

Dahil di nga maganda sa panlasa, di ako magtataka kung wala nang local player na madadagdag sa SG. Kung sino na ang nariyan na, yan na rin ang bubuo sa team sa darating pang torneo. Kung meron mang madadagdag sa hinaharap, baka manggaling lang ito sa San Beda o Ateneo na kung saan malaki ang impluwensya ni MVP na siya ring benefactor ng SG. Ganon pa man, may isang precedent din kay Menor na taga-San Beda na tumanggi maging bahagi ng SG.

oca
11-30-2010, 02:42 PM
Dalawang taon na ang lumipas mula ng unang magpatwag ng try-outs. Isang taon na lang ang nalalabi bago dumating ang FIBA-Asia na siyang main qualifier para sa 2012 London. Kita natin ang kakulangan ng NT sa huling AG.

Wala nang oras para sa “development”. Dapat kapag may idadagdag ka, kaya na nyang makipagsabayan.

Kaya kutob ko, tuluyan nang bibitawan nang SG ang NCC model sa pagdevelop at pagbuo ng team. Babalik ang SBP sa isang kasunduan sa PBA para humugot ng players at punuan ang ano mang kakulangan sa line-up. Kung sino mang player sa labas ng PBA ang madadagdag, palagay ko ay hindi na yan local. "Fil-kung-saan" malamang yan.

Pag humugot uli sa PBA, bumalik lang tayo sa dating gawi.

May mababago kaya sa resulta?

rabbaddal
12-01-2010, 01:39 AM
Let's face it. Players - be it amateur or profressional - are somewhat like gladiators. They can be showered with adultation one day, and dropped like a used tissue the next. UAAP teams do it, PBA teams do it. Even overseas teams do it. Yet these players keep lining up for the opportunity to try out for a spot. Maybe it's irrational, but that's the way it's been for the longest time. I'm not worried about amateur prospects being turned off by the rigodon.

I don't think the SBP is going to drop the NCC model and go back to the old setup of forming all-pro teams 4 months before a tournament. What's more likely is that going into FIBA 2011, they might drop more amateurs and replace them with either pros or more fil-fors. I mentioned earlier about the possibility that Barocca might be replaced.

However, after either the qualifiers or the Olympics (assuming they make it), they will revert back to the pool system. Maybe by then they would've ironed out all the kinks that caused them to trip all over at the beginning and things will run more smoothly in time for 2016.

At the end of the day, Smart Gilas is about having a program running 12 months a year, year-after-year. If there is something about the program that's proven to be wrong (like haphazardly recruiting imports, bringing PBA players late in the game, etc.), it can always be changed and the program will get better. If it's proven that developing young amateurs from scratch is really the right thing to do, then they can always revert back to that. It's flexible.

That's better than forming a team 4 months before a tournament and disbanding it after, only to start from scratch next time. Let's not forget that.

agdlc
12-01-2010, 02:49 AM
Minsang nabanggit pero kulang sa diin kaya babalikan ko lang.

Napag-isip ba ng mga taong nasa likod ng programa ng SG, nang hindi nila isinama sa AG line-up sina Ababou at Ramos ay para na rin nilang binigyan ng dahilan ang mga homegrown players na wala pa sa PBA na huwag tanggapin ang ano mang imbitasyon na mapasama sa SG?



great post. it's a huge testament to the character of these players who committed to the program. imagine passing on your hoops dream to play in the pba, missing out on the big hometown crowds, the airtime on local networks, the fans, and even the luxury of staying at home (with all of the traveling they do). all that just to get to represent your country in basketball. tapos di ka pala makakalaro rin, in the end. call it politics, strategy, or the business of the game, but these guys showed they really sacrificed a whole lot to become team players in the past couple of years.

now, who among the top tier pba players do we think are willing to do the same in the next couple of years?

rabbaddal
12-01-2010, 02:56 AM
They signed lucrative contracts also. What they got from SG is almost equivalent to what they would've gotten had they joined the PBA draft.

oca
12-01-2010, 06:49 AM
In the short term—the very short term-- SG will not drop the NCC model entirely leading to FIBA-Asia 2011. Since it is just literally months before said tournament, they’ll keep what they have and just ask for a few PBA players to fill-in the gaps. No sense of making radical changes in the set-up.

But over the long term, beyond summer 2012- what kind of a program shall we have?

The catch here is this—and this I strongly believe-- how the homegrown non-PBA players are treated in this program will determine the kind of a NT we will have beyond 2012.

Given the case of Ababou and Ramos, magdadalawang isip na talaga ang sino mang iimbitahin. At kung tatanggihan ka ng mga bata, paano ka bubuo ng NT? Saan ka kukuha ng players?

Mapipilitan na naman tayo kumuha ng players sa PBA. But instead of just reinforcing the NT, we may have another all-PBA NT, or a team majority of which are PBA players. That’s not what we all envisioned when SG first came into our consciousness.

We all want an end to the vicious cycle of form and disband, form and disband. We all wanted continuity in our NT.

I say we keep all homegrown players in SG in the active roster in all tournaments up until FIBA-Asia. Douthit will eventually have his papers signed and he will complete this NT.

The people behind SG should not succumb to public pressure to win. Instead they should convince the public of the logic of keeping this program. Use the lessons from previous PBA NT as argument why we should not be using PBA players. The current SG players may not win in FIBA-Asia this 2011, but I believe this is a decent team with Douthit in it. Its competitiveness will drive the point.

My opinion may be labeled as being naïve, that we can form a team without PBA players and win in the AG and FIBA-Asia.

Well, we all thought that a NT with PBA players will win for us the gold. But it has not.

Corrections in italics.

oca
12-01-2010, 07:15 AM
Can someone enlighten me as to the objectives of the Smart Gilas program?...


just to give a different perspective in light of the prevailing argument that has taken over this thread, nightowl's point i think echoes what everyone here is thinking, albeit in varying degrees.

point 1: truth is, smart gilas was not meant to dominate (obviously). take away all the discussions about placing in international competition, comparisons with other national teams, who they beat or by how much, etc. come on, a team with slaughter, tiu, casio, baracael and co. will be our ticket to the olympics? just being light-heartedly realistic here, no offense meant to these players or their supporters :) point 2: on the other hand, who can blame management for setting lofty goals? of course they will launch a program that reaches for the stars. we do not expect them to establish a philippine team that has a goal of "winning at least 3 games" in the AG.

taking these two points hand in hand, even early on in the developmental stages of SG you would have expected to be where we are right now. and the two expected reactions to the two points would be: 1) first, "bakit hindi nalang pba players ginamit?", and 2) "pag hindi tayo mag-olympics, failure and SG". which is what we've been reading here in this forum.

so to try and answer nightowl's initial question, what the goals of SG really is: it is a paradigm shift. putting it in extremely simple terms, there are two types of basketball involved in this issue: let's call one "nba basketball" and the other "fiba basketball". here in 'pinas, we play "nba" basketball. we grew up watching the nba, emulating the nba, and eventually playing like the nba. in the international competitions we want to compete in, they play "fiba" basketball.

for basketball enthusiasts, there are so many intricacies within the game that prevent a smooth transition between one type of basketball to the other. this is exemplified by the lack of dominance of team USA in the fiba worlds and the olympics, and also by the failure of great european players to thrive in the nba. yes, the US did win top honors in both. their elite athletic abilities helped them with that, elite athletic abilities SG does not possess.

so what happens when a country lives and breathes "nba" basketball throughout the years, then wants to compete and win in "fiba" basketball? well the old way of getting pro players who were so used to playing nba ball, and making them play fiba ball wasn't working. so someone said, "why don't we just get young players, keep them from playing nba ball, get a coach well versed with fiba ball to teach them how to play fiba ball for a couple of years, and see if it works?" hence, the paradigm shift. SG is like taking an alternate route to the desired destination. the money of course, would be compensation for these players. these players would have careers in the pba if they didn't play for SG.

> so is SG a failure? see point 1. yes it is, if you were (insert derogatory adjective) enough to truly believe that tiu and co. would be a dominant force in a short span of time.
> is SG better than our past national team? is there really a way to answer this definitively? is this really a significant question? both sucked. even if you prove that one is better than the other, that team would still suck and get beat.
> so what should the philippines do to be competitive in international basketball? this IS the question. my answer is to overhaul all the basketball programs in the country and adopt all fiba rules. fix the courts, change the rulebook, adjust the training from grade school level up to college, and transform the pba. that way, even at a young age, fiba ball will be ingrained into our players. in 20 years, i think we'll be good to go.
> and finally, do we really want to win at fiba basketball? like i said, we live and breathe nba basketball. we want to watch players who can dunk or do an ankle-breaker than watch players who are deadshots from 20 feet. why would we even want to join a fiba basketball tournament anyway? what is it that philippine basketball fans want?




I completely agree with the idea of the overhaul. With FIBA rules ingrained, we can use PBA players for the NT without any of them feeling like in predators long confined in the zoo and then suddenly released in the wild.

The only question remaining after that, assuming the PBA will adopt FIBA rules, are the team owners willing to sacrifice and lend their players?

The case of the Centennial Team was a bitter lesson for the PBA. In the course of preparing for the AG, the PBA suffered a lot in gate attendance and TV viewership. Sino nga naman ang panonoorin ng tao kung ang mga star players ay nasa ibang bansa as part of their training?

But with your time line at 20 years, baka iba na ang pananaw ng mga nagpapatakbo ng PBA by that time.

Teka, is anyone here willing to wait 20 years?

bchoter
12-01-2010, 10:36 AM
I'm just sad for Dylan. He was the first to sign up for the SG team. When asked why he didn't hesitate to sign while others preferred to review the contract (mostly with their agents), Dylan said "Ok na po sa akin yon. Hindi naman po ako magastos. National Team na po ito". The kid was genuinely honored to be part of the team that money was never an issue. Of course Dylan never grew up wanting in money but, still, he could have parlayed his MVP crown to a huge contract. Only to be left out.

Just curious, what happened to the guys who left the team? Did they have to pay the "bond"?

agdlc
12-01-2010, 11:40 AM
They signed lucrative contracts also. What they got from SG is almost equivalent to what they would've gotten had they joined the PBA draft.


the money, while good for the 5(?) years following their graduation from the college ranks, would only be a fraction of what they would have earned had they started out in the pba. they could have developed their game in the pros and raised their stocks in those 5 or so years to earn a more lucrative contract.

after their stint in the NT, which teams would come running to get 27 y.o. rookies who have been trained in fiba basketball by toroman as role players? teams might decide to invest on a younger prospect to develop who had alpha dog status on his team (say, ken acibar over mac baracael or terrence romeo over andy barroca. just examples.). and what happens when the SG players do cross over to the pba? they join the draft also? do they still get rookie contracts with more limited caps depending on the pick range (1st to 3rd get max of around 7M in 3yrs, 3rd-10 get 6M in 3, etc)? i might be talking about differences of about a few hundred thousand pesos these SG players might be missing out on, negligible in the long run of their careers...but still, that's a lot of money.

granted tall players like japeth and greg will still find a niche in any pba team, and too-talented-to-overlook jv casio will have contract offers shoved in his face, what about the tweeners in SG? 1/2 chris tiu, 2/3 ababou, 3/4 mac baracael, then barroca.

just to add: this is the bleaker outlook for these young, promising players of SG. less prestigious definitely than if they were in the pba. if we do want pba players inserted into the lineup at an earlier date (an earlier commitment to a long term project), i find it hard to believe that elite pba superstars, who are willing to leave the limelight and their professional careers behind to become role players, will come in droves to sign up.

bchoter
12-01-2010, 01:20 PM
Ogie Menor proved he had keen foresight when he decided to turn down the offer to play for SG and joined the pros. When asked what made him decide for the pros he said "Pag natapos ako sa Smart Gilas matanda na ako para mag simula ng rookie contract ko. Wala pa rin kasiguraduhang gagamitin ka ng SG. Pag nilaglag ako para sa Fil-Am baka maski second round di ako makuha. Mas pipilin nila yung mga bagong labas sa college maski di pa nasubukan"

pio_valenz
12-01-2010, 02:49 PM
I think I speak for the majority of posters in this thread when I say that we all want the SG program to succeed (which is why we're all being armchair coaches). Honestly I didn't expect SG to medal at the AG, but of course I was cheering for them to beat Korea.

Now, that being said, my frustration with the SG program is this: what exactly are the objectives? At first it was labeled the SMart Gilas Developmental Team, and it sounded great. We would finally have a developmental pool intact that would train all year round without having to worry about the UAAP or NCAA teams recalling players. Unfortunately this hasn't happened. The core group of original players consists of only seven, and Lord knows those seven are not enough to win at the Asian level. I imagined a training pool composed of 15 or so players, but some players opted for the PBA instead, while others like JR Cawaling simply quit. And when you're getting PBA players to fill the gaps, there's nothing developmental about your program anymore.

Which brings me to another point: I thought these guys were under contract? Apparently they can just drop everything and join the PBA whenever they feel like it. If players can come and go as they please, what does that say about the program in the long run? The NCC program of Danding was successful because of two things, neither of which SG has at this point sad to say: 1) it truly had the best amateur players in its ranks, plus two talented naturalized players; and 2) these guys stuck together for three years and all turned pro at the same time.

AS of now, the SG has obviously morphed into a national team pool, and honestly I ahve no problem with that. The SBP people just need to figure out if they will still need PBA help for the FIBA-Asia next year (and from teh looks of things, they really do). But for the long term, can they also make sure the youth team members are elevated when the time is right for them to make up the senior team? In case no one has noticed, our youth teams placed fourth and fifth over the past two years, and if this year's team had been at full strength (with Ray Parks and Baser Amer) who knows what could have happened? This means our teenage players are very competitive with their Asian counterparts. We have to have a feeder system in place somehow and have these kids train together the way Caidic, Calma, Samboy, etc. trained together early on.

Ang kaso, kalaban mo na diyan ang collegiate teams. :-\

bchoter
12-01-2010, 03:14 PM
^ Tutal it was already suggested that MVP gets all NT candidates for his PBA teams, then allow him to get the cream of the crop of HS ball to either Ateneo or SBC. However, he has to make sure that their college ball commitment won't interfere with their development as NT players. No NT training should be interrupted. Pag may nakasabay na international tourney the players should be made available. Tutal para na rin naman silang National Youth team sa lakas eh.

nightowl
12-01-2010, 07:10 PM
I think I speak for the majority of posters in this thread when I say that we all want the SG program to succeed (which is why we're all being armchair coaches). Honestly I didn't expect SG to medal at the AG, but of course I was cheering for them to beat Korea.

Now, that being said, my frustration with the SG program is this: what exactly are the objectives? At first it was labeled the SMart Gilas Developmental Team, and it sounded great. We would finally have a developmental pool intact that would train all year round without having to worry about the UAAP or NCAA teams recalling players. Unfortunately this hasn't happened. The core group of original players consists of only seven, and Lord knows those seven are not enough to win at the Asian level.

Which brings me to another point: I thought these guys were under contract? Apparently they can just drop everything and join the PBA whenever they feel like it. If players can come and go as they please, what does that say about the program in the long run? The NCC program of Danding was successful because of two things, neither of which SG has at this point sad to say: 1) it truly had the best amateur players in its ranks, plus two talented naturalized players; and 2) these guys stuck together for three years and all turned pro at the same time.

Re: Menor and his foresight, I was informed that at the start the 'contracts' of SG were a little one-sided which is why Menor, Maierhofer did not sign. There was a clause that if one leaves before the end of the contract(w/o the SG agreeing to his leaving) he had to pay back what he had already received. At the same time, SG could cut them at any time. I hope this has been changed, because with the way they are getting fil-ams/PBA players and leaving out the 'originals', the college players will not be too keen to sign up with SG.

Is that why so many have signed up with the PBA from SG, like Rabeh, Jazul, etc?

As has been said here, we are not against the SG. If it succeeds, well and good; we'll be cheering for them. So as pio_valenz has said; what are the objectives NOW? Baka nagbago na.

BTW, will Japeth ever live up to his potential?

oca
12-01-2010, 08:16 PM
They signed lucrative contracts also. What they got from SG is almost equivalent to what they would've gotten had they joined the PBA draft.


Maybe lucrative but when a player signed with SG, there is a ramification that many have overlooked even among the hardcore among us.

Singing up and playing for SG has no added value to a player.

How come?, one may ask.

Ganito yan:

First, let us state a FACT: SG players-- Tiu,Casio et al.--- are considered rookies when they apply for the PBA Draft. That being the case, they will be subject to the rookie salary cap.

Eto ang illustration ng nangyari at mangyayari:

Nung pumirma sila ng contrata sa SG, sasahod sila ng "Piso" sa unang taon, "2 Piso" sa ikalang taon, "3 Piso" sa ikatlo, "4 Piso" sa ikaapat. Then, sa pag-akyat nila sa PBA magkano ang matatanggap nilang sa unang taon? Piso ullit!

Binida ng mga tao sa likod ng SG na ang contrata na binigay sa mga SG players ay parehas lang sa tatanggapin ng isang PBA rookie. Pero wala silang sinabi na pag nag-PBA sila rookie ulit ang sahod mo!

Naglaro ka na nang ilang taon sa NT, malawak na experience mo, mas magaling ka na, eto at "Piso" ulit ang sahod mo?

Galing di ba!

bchoter
12-02-2010, 12:38 AM
^ aba'y sakto pala yung reccommendation po. I wholesale elevate sa pros na rin yung magiging NT kagaya ng ginawa ni Boss Danding kila Calma and Co.! Na ginaya din ng Purefoods ni Ayala. At least pagtapos ng kanilang tour of duty may kayamanang nagaantay pa rin sa PBA

agdlc
12-02-2010, 02:13 AM
^ excellent suggestion. make the NT grads eligible for max veteran contracts. however, which teams are willing to give them top dollar will be another issue.


Naglaro ka na nang ilang taon sa NT, malawak na experience mo, mas magaling ka na, eto at "Piso" ulit ang sahod mo?

i don't think this applies, generally, to the SG players. in fact, i think that the SG players are actually at a disadvantage with this. just to illustrate, these guys have been training on an essentially different court than what the pba plays in. the shaded area is a different shape,the 3-point line is 20ft, 6.1 inches from the baseline. well supposedly they already changed the key and moved the 3-point line to 22ft, 1.7 inches recently, closer to the pba trifecta somewhere at 22ft, 1.2 inches. they have also been training using different rules for offense and defense. this means that even if they were eligible for salaries in the james yap level, who would gamble on an older player not used to the "usual" game? casio's sniping abilities might be affected with the difference in inches.


BTW, will Japeth ever live up to his potential?
i think he has hit his ceiling. tried to develop guard skills too much in the states, but the injuries stunted that part of his game. so now he has just average dribbling skills (decent for a guy his height, but he won't blow by anyone on the court), average jumpshot mechanics (can surprise you with an occasional long shot but these will be too few and too far in between), and at most, a C+ for passing out of the post.
as for big man skills: terrible foot work and positioning (he just can't get the boards consistently), poor post defense offset by jumping ability. i'm really sorry to say that, comparing him to his peers who are now in the pba... on offense: rabeh,and even doug kramer (at least this guy has learned how to position himself on the weakside for easy baskets) > japeth. on defense: baclao, maierhoffer > japeth.

agdlc
12-02-2010, 02:54 AM
anyway, returning to the initial discussion, just to go back to basics, why don't we try to draw up a blueprint for making a NT? 2 requirements come in to play here: putting a system in place, and recruiting players. there are a number of ways to go about these two things, all of which fall into main categories enumerated here:

I. putting a system in place
1) franchise (assembled as a fixed lineup and coach with continuity throughout the year; an independent entity)
2) pre-tournament (players and coaches assembled right before competing in a tourney)
3) "team USA" (combo; assembled as a fixed lineup and coach, recalling players only within certain periods in a year)
II. recruiting players
a) from the professional ranks (everyone in pba)
b) from the amateur ranks (everyone not in pba)

1a: this would be the ideal NT, i think but highly un-realistic
1b: smart gilas core (college grads)
2a: former NT
2b: least ideal
3a: conceptually sound, more realistic than 1a, but still unfeasible without pba cooperation
3b: smart gilas pool (undergrads)

where do we go from here?


which leads us to a more sobering thought - what if, whatever we do, whether we stick with the program or go back to tapping pros, this is as good as it gets? (yungha)

rabbaddal
12-02-2010, 04:48 AM
Which brings me to another point: I thought these guys were under contract? Apparently they can just drop everything and join the PBA whenever they feel like it. If players can come and go as they please, what does that say about the program in the long run? The NCC program of Danding was successful because of two things, neither of which SG has at this point sad to say: 1) it truly had the best amateur players in its ranks, plus two talented naturalized players; and 2) these guys stuck together for three years and all turned pro at the same time.


They are under contract. Like any contract so-designed, they can be released given certain conditions are met. PBA teams "drop" players as well through trades, buyouts, etc. Nothing new there.

As for the NCC, people should realize that it was not always successful at the beginning. Only later, when the right players were finally brought in, did they start doing well. What NCC had that NCC didn't have was: (i) A patron and organization that was not answerable to anyone else except the big guy in Malacanang (ii) No deadline for achieving results (iii) A large enough pool of players to tap in case someone left or got injured and (iv) a coach who had as much say in the recruitment of players (especially imports) as the administration.

NCC also had their share of player turnover and good players like Ampalayo who passed them over for the PBA, so what Menor did was nothing out of the ordinary.

rabbaddal
12-02-2010, 04:58 AM
the money, while good for the 5(?) years following their graduation from the college ranks, would only be a fraction of what they would have earned had they started out in the pba. they could have developed their game in the pros and raised their stocks in those 5 or so years to earn a more lucrative contract.

after their stint in the NT, which teams would come running to get 27 y.o. rookies who have been trained in fiba basketball by toroman as role players? teams might decide to invest on a younger prospect to develop who had alpha dog status on his team (say, ken acibar over mac baracael or terrence romeo over andy barroca. just examples.). and what happens when the SG players do cross over to the pba? they join the draft also? do they still get rookie contracts with more limited caps depending on the pick range (1st to 3rd get max of around 7M in 3yrs, 3rd-10 get 6M in 3, etc)? i might be talking about differences of about a few hundred thousand pesos these SG players might be missing out on, negligible in the long run of their careers...but still, that's a lot of money.

granted tall players like japeth and greg will still find a niche in any pba team, and too-talented-to-overlook jv casio will have contract offers shoved in his face, what about the tweeners in SG? 1/2 chris tiu, 2/3 ababou, 3/4 mac baracael, then barroca.


I don't think so. Look at Baracael. Before joining Gilas out of FEU, he would've been lucky to be a 2nd or 3rd round pick. Now, he will certainly be a first round pick.

Tiu and Casio would've been just another bunch of 6'1 SG prospects. How would that look like in a PBA filled with talented 6'4 fil-fors playing their positions? Today, they can orchestrate the pick and rolls, catch-and-shoot and shoot from every corner of the arc (if they master it). That'll give them the kind of career longevity that short but efficient players like Naning Valenciano, Al Solis and Elmer Reyes had. And if they learn to play like Rony Fahed, they can even be stars.

It's not all about the cash up front, but the point is they are compensated accordingly.



just to add: this is the bleaker outlook for these young, promising players of SG. less prestigious definitely than if they were in the pba. if we do want pba players inserted into the lineup at an earlier date (an earlier commitment to a long term project), i find it hard to believe that elite pba superstars, who are willing to leave the limelight and their professional careers behind to become role players, will come in droves to sign up.


I think the question to ask first is whether the PBA wants to insert their players at an earlier date.

OK, here's an obvious case in point. SG is joining the Dubai tournament in early 2011. Whay aren't any PBA players they will be using for FIBA Asia joining them?

rabbaddal
12-02-2010, 05:06 AM
unfeasible without pba cooperation


This is the crucial point in depending on pros. Nothing is possible without PBA cooperation.

We can discuss all the scenarios re. PBA players as much as we want, but if the PBA says "No" then it's "No". They have refused to commit many times before, why will they do it now? They could have done it in their own terms back in 1990, so why should they bend over under someone else's terms today?

rabbaddal
12-02-2010, 05:20 AM
I hope we don't lose sight of the obvious fact that Smart Gilas is a 12-month, year-after-year program. Nobody can dispute that.

Given the kind of basketball setup we have in the Philippines, the only way we can be competitive enough to qualify for the Olympics is to have a system that's committed for the whole year. During the process, they can make good and bad decisions in things like player selection, tournament participation, etc. but as it goes for all endeavors, it's likely that they will work their way towards the right path in due time. Without a fully committed team, there is no way we will make it to the Olympics in 2012 or anytime thereafter. It's that simple.

Some people have repeated concerns about player turnover and replacement. This by itself is not a problem if handled properly. Are we to believe that all successful national teams around the world have not encountered player departures? China itself is notorious for overhauling almost its entire lineups when it doens't do well in an Asian tournament. What you do manage turnover is to expand the pool to more players so that we would have a Team B whose members can step up in case someone in Team A cannot play. China, Iran and Korea have their own Team Bs in one form or another so if a player "graduates" or retires, there will always be someone else to tap for the opening.

oca
12-02-2010, 07:28 AM
For the meantime we have to stick with the NCC model.

But maybe after one Olympic cycle, the SBP should enter into an agreement with the PBA about the lending of former SG players who have moved up to the PBA.
Inevitably, Casio, Tiu, Baracael et al will apply for the pros. It can happen in 2012 if we fail to qualify in London, or in 2013 if we find ourselves playing in the Olympics. ( Baka nga after New Year may umalis na dyan.)

NT worldwide basically follows the Olympic cycle to draw up their plans. Some may have two 4-yr cycles intertwined to include FIBA World. We cannot start from scratch each time a bulk of SG players move up to the PBA. That is not consistent with the “continuity” we all agree as ideal.

One can suggest to expand the current pool of players in the NT. Having a Team B would provide readily available players in case there is a vacancy at Team A. Pero malaking kawalan sa experience at maturity pag may umakyat sa PBA na di mapupunuan agad ng isang galing sa Team B. (Having a Team B will also entail added cost, but that is another issue.)

Which makes me illustrate and cite events starting with the NCC and continuing with the Joe Lipa team of 1986 and the Jaworksi PBA team of 1990.
From NCC, who were the players who were part of the 1986 and 1990 teams? From my recollection there was Samboy and Caidic in 1986; in addition to these 2 we also have Calma and Dignadice in 1990.

The contribution of these guys to the NT in 1986 and 1990 were immensely invaluable. Napakalaki ng naitulong nila. The reason why these players continued to serve in the NT over multiple cycles were simple--talent and experience.

Particularly interesting here is the 1986 team. It was a completely new cast of young players with just Samboy and Caidic “carried over” from the previous NT. Dalawang beterano lang ang nandun but it was competitive.

So, going by how these 4 gentlemen had helped in our campaigns over multiple cycles, we should ask if the same can happen given current conditions?
Pag akyat sa PBA ng current SG players, ano mangyayari sa “maturity at conituinity” ? ( Unless someone among us here have the illusion that the core of this team will former stay with SG.)

Which brings me back to my suggestion:

The SBP should enter into an agreement with the PBA to allow former SG players who have turned pro to be drafted into the NT with minimal or no restrictions.
If that can be agreed upon, any PBA team drafting a SG player knows the conditions what comes with having drafted that player. That PBA team will have no right to deny a request from the SBP.

Parang reserve military service personnel ang former SG player. Pag pinatawag no civilian employer can hold on that person and that person will have his job back after his tour of duty.

To make this more acceptable to the PBA, the SBP must continue to maintain a NT with players outside the PBA; that PBA players will be drafted only to fill the gaps. More importantly ONLY former SG players are to be drafted into the NT.

We cannot deny, there is no substitute for experience. Hence, there must be an arrangement to recall SG players who have moved up to the PBA.

rabbaddal
12-02-2010, 07:59 AM
Generally speaking...and only generally speaking...it's manageable to keep a team of 8-9 players playing together for a whole year, with 3 or 4 joining the team at most 3 months before a tournament and on a full time basis (not 3x a week). PBA seems to have a tolerance for lending players 5 months beforehand so lending Gilas alumni in the PBA won't be a problem. They can't do this by 2011/2012 though because clearly, there are no true Gilas alumni playing in the PBA right now - not yet. That arrangement will have to be long term.

Team B will also have to join tough tournaments to make sure they can replace any Team A player who becomes unavailable. Korea sometimes sends its Team B to the Jones Cup. From what I heard, the Iran Team A was playing in a tournament in Italy while SG was playing in Dubai. Instead of sending the A team, send the B team to tournaments like the Dubai invitationals, Jones Cup and FIBA Champions Cup. That should be enough to keep them busy and give them good experience.

The_Big_Cat
12-02-2010, 08:29 AM
They signed lucrative contracts also. What they got from SG is almost equivalent to what they would've gotten had they joined the PBA draft.


Maybe lucrative but when a player signed with SG, there is a ramification that many have overlooked even among the hardcore among us.

Singing up and playing for SG has no added value to a player.

How come?, one may ask.

Ganito yan:

First, let us state a FACT: SG players-- Tiu,Casio et al.--- are considered rookies when they apply for the PBA Draft. That being the case, they will be subject to the rookie salary cap.

Eto ang illustration ng nangyari at mangyayari:

Nung pumirma sila ng contrata sa SG, sasahod sila ng "Piso" sa unang taon, "2 Piso" sa ikalang taon, "3 Piso" sa ikatlo, "4 Piso" sa ikaapat. Then, sa pag-akyat nila sa PBA magkano ang matatanggap nilang sa unang taon? Piso ullit!

Binida ng mga tao sa likod ng SG na ang contrata na binigay sa mga SG players ay parehas lang sa tatanggapin ng isang PBA rookie. Pero wala silang sinabi na pag nag-PBA sila rookie ulit ang sahod mo!

Naglaro ka na nang ilang taon sa NT, malawak na experience mo, mas magaling ka na, eto at "Piso" ulit ang sahod mo?

Galing di ba!



Good point oca. This reminded me of Rommel Adducul. When Adducul was in the MBA, he was earning the maximum right around P300,000 or more per month. But when he entered the PBA, he went back what a rookie would earn like around P150,000 per month.

Players and their agents also consider the monetary value of signing with Smart Gilas. After all they do have families to feed.

bchoter
12-02-2010, 10:08 AM
Just like comparing NTs from different era, it's not accurate to compare ourselves with the situation in other countries in terms of player turnover. Since China was mentioned, let take them for example. China can aford to overhaul their system because 1) they have a lot to choose from and 2) the system is ingrained from the onset. They have a feeder program. The same is true with European countries who are serious with their basketball. The kids have the basices so when they go up to the NT all they need is to adjust to the coach's plays. There is slim pickings in the Philippines in terms of players suited for the international game that is why it is crucial to maintain a pool that can be called upon to play for the NT. Everybody should go through the system. Unless the guy is a can't miss talent AND can easily adapt to the system, he should be with the pool before being elevated to the NT. I don't recall coach Jacobs inserting a player immediately to the team just because he is more talented than those in the NT. Jerry Codinera was far more talented than Tonichi Yturri but coach Jacobs retained the later because he knows the system and plays his role to the hilt. Heck, maybe 97.92% of PBA bigs were better than Yturri that time but coach Jacobs never considered replacing him. Not even with the slotmen who were, at one time, part of the pool like Manny Victorino.

Going back to the contract, yes, we know that the SG players "can be released given certain conditions are met". But can the players just abandon the contract like what seem to have happened to the likes of Al Hussaini.

agdlc
12-02-2010, 12:56 PM
I don't think so. Look at Baracael. Before joining Gilas out of FEU, he would've been lucky to be a 2nd or 3rd round pick. Now, he will certainly be a first round pick.


it will be a given that because of their size, japeth and greg will be hot commodities. it can also be argued that casio would have been a top 5 pick had he joined the draft in 2009. chris tiu will always be the number one draft pick by any team if just for the dramatic increase in ticket sales, haha!

that brings us to the others:
- in the case of baracael, i do not see how a 27 y.o. (by 2012), 6'3 sf will be a first round pick. he logs in just 14-18 mins a game (he played more than 20 mins only thrice in 9 games: garbage time against qatar, india and dpr korea). in games that were close: he grabbed only 1 rebound in 2 games, 5 rebounds in 1 game, and 0 boards for the rest. he can shoot three's, but there are already a lot of tall shooters in the pba. i admire his tenacity, his willingness to sacrifice his body on the defensive end, but unless it's going to be a thin draft... i don't how a willy wilson/will antonio type player will go that high, esp with his age.
- jason ballesteros barely even made a bleep on the stat sheets. he will also be 27 y.o. by 2012.
- barroca played some solid games, though nothing spectacular. his tournament high was 3 assists, at times dishing out 0 dimes. he'll be 26 y.o. by 2012. if anything, playing for the NT has made everyone forget about the game-fixing brouhaha years back. so that has helped him with his image.
- ababou's stock just plummeted the past couple of years. uaap mvp who has now gone off the radar.
- as for tiu, that's the guy who has surprised me the most. i never thought he would be able to hold his own at that level of competition. value just skyrocketed with gilas.

i don't know when these guys will be eligible for the draft, in '12 or '13. but these are the guys who would have graduated from their collegiate programs by then (apologies to ncaa fans, i'm not as familar with the years of eligibility with the players): kirk long, justin chua, nico salva, ryan buenafe, greg slaughter, maui villanueva, simon atkins, jovet mendoza, jr cawaling, aldrech ramos, reil cervantes, lester alvarez, alex nuyles, janus colina, paul lee, clark bautista, marion magat. add ncaa prospects and some fil-am prospects to round it out.

just a personal draft projection: salva, cawaling and cervantes will go higher than baracael/ mendoza, ramos, and maybe colina will go higher than ballesteros/ nuyles and buenafe will go higher than ababou/ paul lee and maybe bautista will go higher than barroca

bchoter
12-02-2010, 01:09 PM
^ Side comment: I will bet my bottom peso Clark won't be drafted ahead of Barroca

agdlc
12-02-2010, 02:28 PM
^ Side comment: I will bet my bottom peso Clark won't be drafted ahead of Barroca


hahaha! ;D well not based on where he is now. but he has two years left, which is when college players usually make leaps and bounds with their development. he'll be the big gun of ust in those two years (he's currently averaging 11.1ppg to teng's 12.9 despite playing 8 to 9 mins less). gotta love that stroke, which i think is the best in the uaap. even better than marata's.

if barroca's minutes dwindle, i think he'll settle into a topex-robinson-red-bull-version-type of player in the pba. pesky defender, but not really a starter.

agdlc
12-02-2010, 05:11 PM
Given the kind of basketball setup we have in the Philippines, the only way we can be competitive enough to qualify for the Olympics is to have a system that's committed for the whole year.


i think i got carried away with the draft pick discussion. anyway, i think this is 100% correct. i think it's the way to go about putting up a system. however, that's only half of it, as you need to get players to fill in that system. everyone has commented about adding players too late, bumping off players, not having enough pros in the lineup, not having enough talent in the lineup, the shuffling of naturalized players, and the refusal of players to play for SG. my point is, although the SG program, by itself, is promising, the recruitment of players is just as important and is apparently the issue everyone is disappointed about.

well first, you have to make players actually WANT to play for the NT. based on ogie menor's quote posted above, not too many players are actually thrilled at the thought of playing for SG. here are some suggestions:

- build a relationship between SG and the pba (easier said than done, but even if the partnership never reaches a level of harmony, a lot can come out of a little bit of camaraderie here)
- for players with existing contracts in the pba:
> adjust the schedules of conferences to accomodate the dates of international tournaments in the pba offseason- so a player doesn't have to be pulled out mid-season
> of course, monetary compensation for these players
> parent ballclub can get something like discounted airtime for tv ads during televised SG games, more televised
pba games on weekend primetime, etc.
- for amateur players: more incentives for players to sign up for SG
> eligibility for max veteran contracts after their NT stints with free agent status to choose the ballclub they will play
for
> more visibility: televise games, hold tourneys here instead of russia, exhibition games at all-star weekend, etc
> smart telecom shares for tenured vets (i think they do this as well with other franchises) to reward "loyalty"

rabbaddal
12-03-2010, 03:43 AM
Just like comparing NTs from different era, it's not accurate to compare ourselves with the situation in other countries in terms of player turnover. Since China was mentioned, let take them for example. China can aford to overhaul their system because 1) they have a lot to choose from and 2) the system is ingrained from the onset. They have a feeder program. The same is true with European countries who are serious with their basketball. The kids have the basices so when they go up to the NT all they need is to adjust to the coach's plays. There is slim pickings in the Philippines in terms of players suited for the international game that is why it is crucial to maintain a pool that can be called upon to play for the NT.

But that's why they're putting a program in place now - so that we are comparable to China. The whole idea is to make sure that even if players and coaches change, the system stays intact. It is futile to try and stop turnover becaus there are many factors that will inevitably cause it to happen.



Going back to the contract, yes, we know that the SG players "can be released given certain conditions are met". But can the players just abandon the contract like what seem to have happened to the likes of Al Hussaini.


Rabeh didn't abandon his contract. He asked to be released, along with Jazul. Smart Gilas didn't challenge this (they could've, but didn't). For one, I don't think they wanted to burn bridges with Rabeh in case they may need his services in the future. And second, it could cause more distraction at a point where they're trying to accomplish so much in so little time. Might as well release him and move on.

rabbaddal
12-03-2010, 04:03 AM
- in the case of baracael, i do not see how a 27 y.o. (by 2012), 6'3 sf will be a first round pick. he logs in just 14-18 mins a game (he played more than 20 mins only thrice in 9 games: garbage time against qatar, india and dpr korea). in games that were close: he grabbed only 1 rebound in 2 games, 5 rebounds in 1 game, and 0 boards for the rest. he can shoot three's, but there are already a lot of tall shooters in the pba. i admire his tenacity, his willingness to sacrifice his body on the defensive end, but unless it's going to be a thin draft... i don't how a willy wilson/will antonio type player will go that high, esp with his age.

In Baracael’s case, I think he’ll still be a hot commodity at 27 if he can also play off guard as well as small forward, especially one with solid fundamentals. Not too many post-Caidic PBA shooters know how to shoot from all angles of the arc, execute the quick release (most are set shooters), play well on both offense and defense at the same time and create their own opportunities on the pick and roll. He'll have a long career in the pros because he doesn't have to rely on athleticism to power his game. Baracael can even boast that he has an “agimat” from a bullet wound! :D



- jason ballesteros barely even made a bleep on the stat sheets. he will also be 27 y.o. by 2012.
- barroca played some solid games, though nothing spectacular. his tournament high was 3 assists, at times dishing out 0 dimes. he'll be 26 y.o. by 2012. if anything, playing for the NT has made everyone forget about the game-fixing brouhaha years back. so that has helped him with his image.

Balle and Barocca probably won’t last long in Gilas anyway. Waiting in the wings are Chris Banchero and Christian Standhardinger. Expect them to leave the program soon, maybe in 2011 or 2012 depending on whether they qualify.



- ababou's stock just plummeted the past couple of years. uaap mvp who has now gone off the radar.


He was injured last year and hasn’t gotten his groove back. Opportunities for him to recover his form were limited when Lutz joined and later, the PBA players were included in the lineup. This is one of the reasons why I wish there was a Team B so that borderline players like Ababou and Ramos will still have a chance to play at competitive tournaments.

As for Menor, I’m not too worried about his preference for the PBA. Back in the 80s, Dondon Ampalayo went to the PBA instead of NCC. The program can survive without him as well as some stars who may feel that they are better off joining the PBA. All the more reason why we should have a Team B so that they can have a continuous source of talent.

Also, it looks like the PBA is amenable to lending players for 4 months at a time. As long as they have the rest of the team training together for the whole year, they can make do with borrowing some PBA players.

Sam Miguel
12-03-2010, 08:53 AM
^^^ Rab, is that Christian Standhardinger you are referring to, who plays for Nebraska in the US NCAA? Hasn't he already played for the German Youth Team? Under FIBA rules that means he can't play for the Philippines anymore, right?

rabbaddal
12-03-2010, 09:12 AM
^^^ Rab, is that Christian Standhardinger you are referring to, who plays for Nebraska in the US NCAA? Hasn't he already played for the German Youth Team? Under FIBA rules that means he can't play for the Philippines anymore, right?



Yes, that's him. His name keeps popping up along with Stanley Pringle as a Gilas prospect despite him having played in the German youth team.

Sam Miguel
12-03-2010, 09:38 AM
^^^ Hmm... Coach Toroman and Noli Eala may have to do some more homework on Standhardinger then. To my knowledgehis being part of the German Youth Team disqualifies him from representing any other country in FIBA tournaments.

rabbaddal
12-03-2010, 09:44 AM
Let's see what they can cook up. The reason they invited him to try out was precisely because of his credentials from playing with the German team. Kung hindi, nandun naman sina Ray Parks, Stanley Pringle at Chris Banchero.

yungha
12-03-2010, 11:55 AM
i read in the interbasket forums that tyler lamb of ucla is also fil-am. tyler was a 4-star recruit as opposed to rayray who's 3-star. in terms of credentials, our fil-ams shoudl be improving because they're starting to play in major conferences (parks-ACC, lamb-Pac10, lutz-Big 10 and Conference USA, standhardinger-Big 8, pringle-Big 10).

to date, though, the most accomplished and those who contributed the most to the national team are from the prolific first wave composed of the seigle brothers, taulava, menk, noy castillo, etc. although these guys played in minor conferences and in the case of taulava and menk not even division 1, they took local basketball by storm. sayang talaga sina alvarado at parker but that's getting off-topic.

agdlc
12-03-2010, 01:31 PM
i really hope you're right re: baracael. yeah, after than shooting incident, he's proven he's as tough as nails. he's going to find plenty of competition for a role in the pba with the emerging position of the hybrid 3/4. most fil-ams in the pros hover between 6'3 to 6'5. same goes with ballesteros, barroca and ababou- hope they find their niche in the pba. thing is, when teams talk about rookies, we always hear "may potential" or "he's going to develop into a great player" or "he needs a couple of years more under his belt". at 27 y.o. with 3 years of bball experience at an elite level, teams might not tag them with the "may potential" card anymore. but still, any team would be fortunate to have them reinforce their lineups for years to come. whether they deserve first round consideration or top-level money is another thing.


Waiting in the wings are Chris Banchero and Christian Standhardinger
so we would have: 8 fil-foreigners (none of whom grew up here, and one even played for another national team), 1 naturalized citizen, then tiu, casio, baracael, and japeth. then there's parks and pringle. well at least the SG pool is increasing.