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gameface_one
05-10-2007, 10:50 PM
Caloy Loyzaga? Ramon Fernandez? Robert Jaworski? Alvin Patrimonio? Allan Caidic? Ambrosio Padilla? .......... share your thoughts!

pachador
05-11-2007, 12:35 AM
kung poung for pound, panalo si fernandez kasi even with his malnourished frame ( i remember it was only 165 lbs yata on a 6'4" body ba yun ? ), he was stll able to produce and be MVP several times
* ;D* *;D* *;D

1979
05-11-2007, 08:11 AM
hmmm

this is difficult....

probably a toss up between Patrimonio and Fernandez....

khernitz
05-11-2007, 08:31 AM
alvin patrimonio?????? puro kahunghangan lang ginawa nyan sa international play.....caloy loyzaga pa rin....

oca
05-11-2007, 08:34 AM
Pound for pound.

Undisputed one of the best rebounders ever.

Magaling mag-assist.

No doubt, pamantayan pa rin ang kanyang depensa.

May tira sa labas.

Kayang dalhin ang bola sa loob.

May gulang.

Great feel for the game. Mapa local or intenational play.

Jawo.

Tiyak sasabihin ng lolo ko si Caloy. Pero di ka siya inabutan. Pero kung totoo na yung combined skills nila Chito at Joey ang kabuuan ni Caloy, maniniwala ako sa lolo ko.

bluebruiser90
05-11-2007, 11:15 AM
And Caloy was big and athletic for his time. At 6'3", can practically play all positions and recognized at the world level, an argument can be made that if the NBA already had its doors open to international players during those days, The Big Difference would have had the chance to be the first Asian and the first Pinoy to play in the L.

1979
05-11-2007, 11:47 AM
alvin patrimonio?????? puro kahunghangan lang ginawa nyan sa international play.....caloy loyzaga pa rin....


I remember he had 4 MVP titles. Honestly I am no Alvin fan but I just saw this in Wikipedia: nothing to scoff at...

# Most Valuable Player in 1991, 1993, 1994, and 1997
# Mythical First Team Selection in 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1996, 1997, 1998, and 2000
# Mythical Second Team Selection in 1995
# Best Player of the Conference in 1994 Commissioner's Cup, 1996 All-Filipino Cup, and 1997 Governor's Cup
# Ten time PBA All-Star
# Most Valuable Player of the 1991 PBA All-Star Game
# 25 PBA Greatest Players Member
# PBA 5,000 Points Club Member
# PBA 10,000 Points Club Member
# PBA 15,000 Points Club Member

yungha
05-11-2007, 11:47 AM
^ were non-Americans barred from playing in the NBA then?

for me, it's Jawo. i hated him, i hated ginebra, but in his prime he had to be the top pound-for-pound player in the country. this is the guy i feel who, in his prime, could have played in the NBA. he could have tried out in the mid to late 70s. he wouldn't have been a career NBAer, but i think an NBA team would have been intrigued enough to sign him to a short contract.

how i wish we'd produce another legitimate full-blooded pinoy NBA prospect.

khernitz
05-11-2007, 12:05 PM
alvin patrimonio?????? puro kahunghangan lang ginawa nyan sa international play.....caloy loyzaga pa rin....


I remember he had 4 MVP titles. Honestly I am no Alvin fan but I just saw this in Wikipedia: nothing to scoff at...

# Most Valuable Player in 1991, 1993, 1994, and 1997
# Mythical First Team Selection in 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1996, 1997, 1998, and 2000
# Mythical Second Team Selection in 1995
# Best Player of the Conference in 1994 Commissioner's Cup, 1996 All-Filipino Cup, and 1997 Governor's Cup
# Ten time PBA All-Star
# Most Valuable Player of the 1991 PBA All-Star Game
# 25 PBA Greatest Players Member
# PBA 5,000 Points Club Member
# PBA 10,000 Points Club Member
# PBA 15,000 Points Club Member


puro local credentials yan tol....i'm talking about international play....

JonarSabilano
05-11-2007, 12:56 PM
alvin patrimonio?????? puro kahunghangan lang ginawa nyan sa international play.....caloy loyzaga pa rin....


I remember he had 4 MVP titles.* Honestly I am no Alvin fan but I just saw this in Wikipedia:* nothing to scoff at...

# Most Valuable Player in 1991, 1993, 1994, and 1997
# Mythical First Team Selection in 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1996, 1997, 1998, and 2000
# Mythical Second Team Selection in 1995
# Best Player of the Conference in 1994 Commissioner's Cup, 1996 All-Filipino Cup, and 1997 Governor's Cup
# Ten time PBA All-Star
# Most Valuable Player of the 1991 PBA All-Star Game
# 25 PBA Greatest Players Member
# PBA 5,000 Points Club Member
# PBA 10,000 Points Club Member
# PBA 15,000 Points Club Member


puro local credentials yan tol....i'm talking about international play....


The thing with your argument is that it conveniently overlooks the fact that professionals were only allowed to play for their respective national teams in 1990. I can't recall if Patrimonio was already part of the 1990 Asian Games team that bagged the silver in Beijing, but the 1994 Patrimonio (Hiroshima) was, sadly, not the same Patrimonio that we saw when he first stepped into the PBA.

By the way, the thread starter did not exactly specify "best pound-for-pound player in international play", but merely "best pound-for-pound player". Now, taking Patrimonio's accomplishments in the PBA, he will definitely be a candidate.

By the way, your approach would be tantamount to saying Caloy Loyzaga's achievements in the international front were non-factors because he never got to play professionally.

Joescoundrel
05-11-2007, 12:58 PM
Nobody would hold a candle to the Big J that's for damn sure.

Yes, Caloy Loyzaga could play all positions and was once upon a time one of the best cagers in the world.

Yes, Mon Fernandez and Alvin Patrimonio won all of those MVP awards and individual accolades.

BUT none of them had that unique package Jaworski had. He had it all: good size for a guard, excellent rebounder and position defender, knows all the tricks, in his prime could score at will against anybody, had underrated quickness in an era of many great speedsters, and what can you say about his longevity and charisma? THAT to me is what makes him the best pound for pound.

Imagine him in his prime say in 1971 or 1972. He was a 6-foot-1 180-pound guard who was ambidextrous, tough and strong. I daresay if the NBA had been open to international players then the way they are now the Big J could've easily been the first Asian to become an NBA player. He was just the right size and had the right skill set to be an NBA combo-guard in the early 1970's. Heck if the likes of Jerry Sichting, John Sundvold and Scott Skiles could be NBA players why not Jaworski? At the very least he could do what those guys could do, had the same kind of mental toughness and leave everything on the court attitude, and then some!

Imagine the Big J defending Pete Maravich, heck, Jaworski would've retired the Pistol. I think he could've been at least a four-year journeyman in the NBA of the 1970's.

khernitz
05-11-2007, 04:00 PM
alvin patrimonio?????? puro kahunghangan lang ginawa nyan sa international play.....caloy loyzaga pa rin....


I remember he had 4 MVP titles. Honestly I am no Alvin fan but I just saw this in Wikipedia: nothing to scoff at...

# Most Valuable Player in 1991, 1993, 1994, and 1997
# Mythical First Team Selection in 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1996, 1997, 1998, and 2000
# Mythical Second Team Selection in 1995
# Best Player of the Conference in 1994 Commissioner's Cup, 1996 All-Filipino Cup, and 1997 Governor's Cup
# Ten time PBA All-Star
# Most Valuable Player of the 1991 PBA All-Star Game
# 25 PBA Greatest Players Member
# PBA 5,000 Points Club Member
# PBA 10,000 Points Club Member
# PBA 15,000 Points Club Member


puro local credentials yan tol....i'm talking about international play....


The thing with your argument is that it conveniently overlooks the fact that professionals were only allowed to play for their respective national teams in 1990. I can't recall if Patrimonio was already part of the 1990 Asian Games team that bagged the silver in Beijing, but the 1994 Patrimonio (Hiroshima) was, sadly, not the same Patrimonio that we saw when he first stepped into the PBA.

By the way, the thread starter did not exactly specify "best pound-for-pound player in international play", but merely "best pound-for-pound player". Now, taking Patrimonio's accomplishments in the PBA, he will definitely be a candidate.

By the way, your approach would be tantamount to saying Caloy Loyzaga's achievements in the international front were non-factors because he never got to play professionally.


nope...i don't discount the local credentials...i just believe that international play is a more accurate indicator of how good you are....sa international play you are exposed against the competitiveness and skills of basketball players from different nationalities....caloy loyzaga has proven that he's not only good against the local players but can go toe to toe with players from other countries....yan ang the best....

1979
05-11-2007, 04:27 PM
alvin patrimonio?????? puro kahunghangan lang ginawa nyan sa international play.....caloy loyzaga pa rin....


I remember he had 4 MVP titles. Honestly I am no Alvin fan but I just saw this in Wikipedia: nothing to scoff at...

# Most Valuable Player in 1991, 1993, 1994, and 1997
# Mythical First Team Selection in 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1996, 1997, 1998, and 2000
# Mythical Second Team Selection in 1995
# Best Player of the Conference in 1994 Commissioner's Cup, 1996 All-Filipino Cup, and 1997 Governor's Cup
# Ten time PBA All-Star
# Most Valuable Player of the 1991 PBA All-Star Game
# 25 PBA Greatest Players Member
# PBA 5,000 Points Club Member
# PBA 10,000 Points Club Member
# PBA 15,000 Points Club Member


puro local credentials yan tol....i'm talking about international play....


The thing with your argument is that it conveniently overlooks the fact that professionals were only allowed to play for their respective national teams in 1990. I can't recall if Patrimonio was already part of the 1990 Asian Games team that bagged the silver in Beijing, but the 1994 Patrimonio (Hiroshima) was, sadly, not the same Patrimonio that we saw when he first stepped into the PBA.

By the way, the thread starter did not exactly specify "best pound-for-pound player in international play", but merely "best pound-for-pound player". Now, taking Patrimonio's accomplishments in the PBA, he will definitely be a candidate.

By the way, your approach would be tantamount to saying Caloy Loyzaga's achievements in the international front were non-factors because he never got to play professionally.


I agree. :)

bchoter
05-11-2007, 06:25 PM
What if we had the Americans' size (plus 6 inches maybe)?
1. a 6'9" Mon Fernandez would have been unstoppable with his deft touch and wily plays
2. a 6'7" Jawo would have made mincemeat of any PG way before Magic.
3. Who cares about defensive specialist Bobby Jones when you have a 6'9" Philip Cezar with 7' plus wingspan?
4. Karl Malone? Make mine 6'9" Abe King. His position should be VPF (Very Powerful Forward)
5. 6'7" Samboy Lim could have rivaled Dr. J's acrobatics
6. 6'7" Paul Alvarez as the poor man's version of Michael Jordan
7. Who will stop a 6'9" Benjie Paraz?
8. 6'9" Allan Caidic could have shot over the heads of his defenders on the way to 33 3 pointers in one game
9. Johhny Abarrientos could have been our answer to Thomas ... only less obnoxious

The list could go on but for me, the very slightly built Mon Fernandez is the best with basketball's devil reincarnate Robert Jaworski coming in second

kryptonite
05-11-2007, 10:39 PM
alvin patrimonio?????? puro kahunghangan lang ginawa nyan sa international play.....caloy loyzaga pa rin....


During the heydays of Caloy Loyzaga, the basketball powers in Asia did not include China. As you know it is only starting in the late 70s up to now that China became a basketball power. So, Loyzaga was already considered a "giant" at 6-3 back then in the 50s and 60s. The game was played more on the perimeter as the post players were mostly considered "stiffs" back then. But Loyzaga was the "Big Difference" back then as he dominated the shaded lane.

Alvin Patrimonio also stands 6-3 but he played against all of the dominating big men of Asia. If you got to see the Asian games held in Seoul, Korea in 1986 where Patrimonio played mostly the Center Position. It is in that tournament where Alvin showed his best stuff, nevermind the Asian games in 1990, 1994, and 1998.

Another big man who impressed me in international play is Benjie Paras. You should have seen his moves during the 1986 Asian Juniors held at the Rizal Memorial Coliseum where he battled the Chinese giants.

For me, Patrimonio was the best Filipino player ever, even better than Ramon Fernandez. Jaworski? He has the heart and soul to play but the skills? Patrimonio is better than the rest...whether in international play or the PBA.

bchoter
05-12-2007, 05:14 PM
Even better than Don Ramon? I don't think so. Maybe Patrimonio was the ptrototypical power forward but Mon Fernandez had better skills. He was so good that it was hard to peg him in one position. I'd rather call him a basketball player.

nel
05-12-2007, 11:17 PM
I agree that Fernandez is arguably the best pound-for-pound. He had the most complete game - could score against anyone, had great timing and positioning skills to get more than his share of rebounds, played excellent defense, was probably the best ballhandler for a guy his size, and was a great passer. All those athletic skills were driven by a sharp basketball mind that allowed him to maximize his capabilities. Contrast him with his contemporary Abet Guidaben, who was tall and could score, but wasn't capable of doing much more.

Fernandez brought grace and fluidity to the game, in contrast with the very physical, almost brutish playing style of others like Jawo and Paras. Remember the famous 'elegant' running shot of Fernandez? Fernandez could and did take off from either foot while taking a shot. Like Duncan, he could dominate a game without needing to have the ball in his hands most of the time.

BTW, Jawo was not ambidextrous - his left-handed layup was extremely clumsy since he couldn't take off well with his right foot, and he couldn't drive to his left because he didn't dribble well with his left hand. He was almost purely a one-handed player. Those who feel he was a good PG should remember that his backcourt running mate Francis Arnaiz was a much better ball handler and passer who also had a high looping layup that he used to score successfully against anyone who tried to stop his drive. Jawo's claim to fame was his barreling drive that was rarely challenged because nobody wanted to take the hit.

Trivia - (this was during the pre-PBA days) during one of his first games after his Ateneo playing years, a former Blue Eagle named Arben Santos (wasn't he an Ateneo team official a few years back?) bravely held his ground against a Jawo drive, Jawo toppled over head first, was knocked unconscious and suffered some seizures - scary sight. Jawo was rushed to the hospital, but happily suffered no serious injuries and was back playing after a few weeks. I never saw Arben Santos play again after that game.

Jawo's teammate Arnaiz had good footwork, having played football before he shifted to basketball, and his footwork made Jawo look flatfooted in comparison. During their era, Arnaiz was probably the best Pinoy dribbler, yet Calvin Murphy repeatedly stripped him during the games the visiting NBA vets had here at that time. If Arnaiz fared that poorly against the NBA retirees, Jawo definitely could not have made it in the NBA even during his prime.

His success and popularity was premised on his ability to intimidate his opponents as well as the officials. Many regulars here aren't aware that Jawo and Big Boy Reynoso were once banned for life for beating up and stomping (really!) on refs during a game because they didn't like the calls. He was eventually pardoned and allowed to play again. Even then, he had a penchant for bending the rules when it suited him, something that he continued to do in the PBA, first as a player, then as a coach. I still remember how the league treated him with kid gloves when he gave the 'throad slitting' gesture to the ref after a player (I think it was Caidic) took a horrible fall and was knocked unconscious on the court. In another incident, the league fined and suspended a ref for giving a comment to the press over a run-in with Jawo, while Jawo was not penalized or censured for giving his own comments to sports scribes. Talk about favoritism or intimidation. That's why for all his abilities, I never considered Jawo as a great player - because he exemplified the attitude 'kung makakalusot, lulusot' - he would deliberately bend the rules, and dare the officials to call him out.

For some strange reason, Jawo never announced his retirement as a player. He won't attempt a comeback as a player, because today's guards would run rings around him, and he would probably break his ankles trying to keep in step with the young 'uns like Caguoia, Helterbrand, Tenorio, etc.

Jawo has definitely made his mark in Philippine basketball, and his passion and will to win have made his probably the most popular Pinoy cager ever, but as a player, Fernandez was simply a notch above everyone else. Don Ramon made the game look easy.

Wang-Bu
05-13-2007, 06:21 PM
Best pound for pound: siguro si Benjie Paras na 'yon.

2-time MVP, first ever rookie-MVP ng PBA. Nakipagsabayan sa dalawang malalaki ng China na ka-era niya at pinahiya pa pareho: sina Song Li Gang (6'8") at Shan Tao (7'2"). Considering na matindi na ang China nung panahon ni Paras at sila ang the best in Asia hindi matatawaran ang ginawang pagsagupa ng Tower of Power sa kanila.

Si Don Ramon at si Cap kahit gaano pa sila kagaling hirap sa mga player ng China nung gumaling na ang China. Nung nanalo sina Don Ramon, Jawo, et al nung ABC Championship nung early 1970's supot pang China nuon, pati na Japan. Ang Korea nung nakalaban nila si Shin Dong Pa lang naman talaga ang pinagmamalaki.

Nung panahon ni Paras kaya niyang sabayan ang mga mas malalaki at mas matitinding atleta ng China. Tandaan din natin na nung nag-MVP muli si Paras nung 1999 kasagsagan naman ng mga Fil-Am at siya pa din ang nag-MVP. Nung isang laban ng Shell kontra Tanduay dinakdakan niya ng harap-harapan sina Eric Menk at ang Fil-Sham na Sonny Alvarado. Nung panahon na iyon wala na halos ang dating lakas ni Patrimonio at siya ang dinadakdakan ng mga Fil-Am, samantalang si Paras sinasabayan ang mga Fil-Am.

Sa dako naman ng mga binanggit ni Sir Nel tungkol kay idol ko ang masasabi ko lang ay sadyang may mga nilalang na nilaan ng Poong Maykapal para maging kilala at dakilain sa natatanging larangan. Kahit ano pang sabihin natin hindi maitatatwa na ang kasaysayan ng larong basketball sa ating bansa ay kaakibat ng alamat ni Sonny Jaworski.

pio_valenz
05-15-2007, 04:08 PM
If we include basketball smarts, feel for the game, and court awareness in the pound-for-pound mix, then Mon Fernandez gets my vote. A little disclaimer is that I never saw Caloy Loyzaga in his prime, but a very knowledgeable person once told me that the best approximation of Loyazaga's greatness was to combine Fernandez's and Philip Cezar's skills. But then, since I never saw Caloy play, I cannot attest to the accuracy of that statement.

Fernandez was perhaps the smartest Pinoy player I ever saw, whether it was knowing where his four other teammates were at all times or accurately reading his defender's tendencies. For a big man, he also dribbled very well and was an excellent passer out of the post. And we all know he could put up points on the board whenever he wanted to. And, like Jawo, he also had longevity.

That's the qualitative part. Now, let's go to the quantitative part and quote Oscar Robertson: the stats don't lie.
Fernandez came within a fraction of an assist of averaging a triple double for an entire season back in 1984. I don't remember the exact numbers, but for that season he averaged something like 27 points, 11 rebounds and over nine assists per game. I don't care what league you play in, those stats are downright ridiculous.

And to quote wikipedia:

He was the first four-time MVP of the league, winning it in 1982, 1984, 1986 and 1988, all even numbered years. Considered as the best big man to have come out of the PBA, he can play all five positions on the court, as center, power forward, small forward, off guard and point guard, with uncanny ability. His trademark one-handed running jumper dubbed the "elegant shot" was his most potent offensive weapon. In 1984, he came awfully close to averaging in triple-double the whole season, being only five assists shy from achieving the feat. He ended his PBA career as the all-time leader in most points scored with 18,996, No. 2 behind Jaworski in assists with 5,220, No. 1 in defensive rebounds with 6,435, No. 2 in offensive rebounds behind Guidaben with 2,217, No. 1 in overall rebounds with 8,652, No. 1 in minutes played with 36624:30, No. 2 in games played behind Guidaben, No. 1 in blocks with 1,853, and, since Feb 5, 2007, No. 2 behind Johnny Abarrientos in steals with 1,302 despite retiring as all-time leader. He ended with career averages of 17.7 ppg, 8.1 rpg, 4.9 apg, 1.2 spg and 1.7 bpg in 1,074 games.

And if I may add my two-cents' on the Patrimonio debate, re: his not making an impact in international play, I agree Alvin was never the leading scorer or rebounder on any of the RP teams he was part of, but here's the thing: he and Allan Caidic are the only Filipinos to ever play in four Asian Games: 1986, 1990, 1994, and 1998. That ahs to count for something. But overall I'd still vote for El Presidente.

bluebruiser90
05-16-2007, 11:14 AM
Wasn't Caidic and Patrimonio picked as part of the mythical team in the Asian Games (or ABC Championships)?

genom222
10-30-2007, 07:10 AM
Just wanted to share this funny story with my uncle (who was a diehard Mon F. fan)

This uncle of mine was saying stories of how great El Presidente was in his prime and during his years in USC in Cebu (they were school mates) I asked him (jokingly) who was the better player, Mon Fernandez or Michael Jordan?* ;D

To my shock, he became serious and paused for a long moment (pinagisipan pa talaga!) then finally answered: Si Jordan..... pero iba pa rin si Fernandez! wehehehehe!

But that alone would be a testament of how good he was... he was a player ahread of his time, parang Kevin Garnett nga daw but with better instincts sabi ng Tito ko when asked who among the current players would resemble Mon... so ayun share ko lang.... sentimental favorite ko Caloy Loyzaga, another favorite of another uncle hehe

Ghostrider
10-30-2007, 01:31 PM
Just throwing another name for your consideration.

How about 5'10 (or less) Danny Florencio, who was once equally feared in Asia as South Korea's legendary Shin Dong Pa?

salsa caballero
10-30-2007, 02:33 PM
Ito ha, maka-Toyota ako ha pero naaalala ko ito, hanggang ngayon.

As oft stated by the late, one and only JQ, (that's Joe Quirino to all of you below the age of 20), the best Pinoy cager pound for pound is/was Bernie Fabiosa. O, ha! Gulat rin kayo no? Mr. Crispanatic himself with an unabashed opinion.....

Tikit awee....(if any of you still remember this signature phrase then you're certainly getting along in years)

Kid Cubao
10-30-2007, 02:47 PM
about danny florencio, his big edge over shin dong pa is that he knows how to create his own shot. moreover, he was a more fearless slasher renowned for his "hang time" while doing his reverse layups. shin dong pa, on the other hand, was a much better shooter. his in-between game was impressive--parang layup lang sa kanya ang mga 15-footers. yun lang, he needed his point guard, whose name i no longer remember, to set him up.

about bernie fabiosa, he was steve nash before steve nash became steve nash, if you know what i mean :D

with fabiosa and joy dionisio running the crispa fastbreak attack, halftime scores in the 80s was the norm.

dioning
10-30-2007, 05:02 PM
Ito ha, maka-Toyota ako ha pero naaalala ko ito, hanggang ngayon.

As oft stated by the late, one and only JQ, (that's Joe Quirino to all of you below the age of 20), the best Pinoy cager pound for pound is/was Bernie Fabiosa. O, ha! Gulat rin kayo no? Mr. Crispanatic himself with an unabashed opinion.....

Tikit awee....(if any of you still remember this signature phrase then you're certainly getting along in years)


Bro,

Da Living Legend is the best of all time.

Lou Salvador, Sr. of the 19-kopongkopong Jose Rizal Heavy Bombers, Meralco and YCO is second best. He could score a hundred plus points in a game during his time. He could also shoot and score from the opposite side of the court. The guy shot the daylights out of the former bagumbayan field. Atsaka magaling din siya mag shoot muna bago dribble kaya halos isang daan din ang anak niya.

During the 60's and 70's ang mga iba pang magagaling na basketbolista aside from the likes of Da Big J, Fast Break Freddie, Paner, Bogs Adornado, Da Fortune Cookie, Florencio, Mariano, Yoyong Martirez, Fabiosa, Mr. Clutch atbp. ay sina Sonny Reyes of the Glowing Goldies and later YCO; Narciso Bernardo of Don Bosco, NU Bulldogs, Ysmael Steel and Mariwasa; his nemesis Ed Ocampo of Ateneo and YCO; Eddie Pacheco of Letran and Ysmael. Ocampo and Pacheco were former Mr. Basketball and Mr. Football. Pacheco nga almost played for the Galacticos in the 60's. Magaling din si Kurt Bachman ng Lasalle Green Archers and YCO. Siya sana ang bagong uupo sa trono ni Da Big Difference kaso bumigay ang tuhod niya.

Nandyan din si Romy Diaz ng FEU Tamaraws, Crispa Floro and Meralco Reddymen; Adriano "The Rifleman" Papa, Jr. of NU, Crispa, Mariwasa and Filmanbank; the late great Dave Supnet of the San Sebastian Stags and the Tanduay Esquires (as in ESQ-Extra Smooth Quality). Supnet is about 6'2" but he could execute a reverse two handed jam during his time in the NC when no one else could even dunk. Sayang, matapos siyang abangan sa ilalim ni Dave Brodett ng San Beda Red Lions e naging ga-toothpick nalang ang talon niya.

Madami pa, Manny Jocson of FEU and Ysmael, si Egay Gomez ng JRC and YCO; Larry "Da Little Fox" Mumar of UST, Ysmael, Meralco and Presto; Engracio "Boy" Arazas of FEU, Ysmael and Meralco; Arturo Valenzona of FEU, YCO and U/tex; Alfonso "Boy" Marquez of the UV Lancers, Ysmael, Meralco, Mariwasa and Concepcion Carriers; Tembong Melencio of Adamson, Yutivo and Concepcion; Roehl Nadurata of the UE Warriors, Ysmael and U/tex; Big Boy Reynoso of San Beda, Ysmael, Meralco, Toyota and Mariwasa; Rudy "Da Magician" Soriano of UE, Crispa and Gallerie Dominique; Elias Tolentino of JRC, YCO and 7-UP; Mike Bilbao of Lasalle, Tanduay and Beer Hausen; Rene Canent of Tanduay; Orly Bauzon of UST, Ysmael, Meralco, Toyota and Mariwasa; Estoy Estrada of UV, San Miguel, Toyota and Great Taste; Ed Carvajal ng San Beda, JRC and Crispa. Sayang itong si Carvajal. 6'6" na mobile kaso naging gulay kasi nauntog daw sa dug out ng Rizal Memorial. Dahil dun, nabigyan ng break si Guidaben sa Crispa.

Ang mga iba pang naaalala ko ay sina Marte Samson, Joy Cleofas, Botchok delos Santos, Jimmy Noblezada, Rudy Kutch, Epoy Alcantara, Dodie Miego, Jake Rojas, Dave Regullano, Ompong Segura, and of course si tukayo Gregorio "Joy" Dionisio. * *

salsa caballero
10-30-2007, 08:34 PM
Brother Dioning,

Edad natin...napaghahalataan...hehehe. About Romy Diaz of FEU, did you know he also played for Ateneo? Of course medyo hindi naman natin siya puwede ilagay sa best Pinoy cager pound for pound kaya OT tayo. Nevertheless, I hereby nominate him for being one of the Top Ten onscreen Pinoy rapists of all time. Toss up sila ni Dick Ysrael for the number one slot...Hahahaha.

Welcome to Gameface, btw.

Ghostrider
10-30-2007, 09:04 PM
From Mr. Ross:


Shin Dong Pa went to dinner once with me and Boy Marquez....good friend ni Boy ito. I had the unfortunate task of guarding Shin in the Pesta Sukan games where he scored 49 points...I was in 4th year college then but was allowed to play for Meralco as long as it was'nt the MICAA. I played against him a couple of more times in Korea and Japan before I came to the States. He was one of the smartest and deadliest cager in Asia then. He told us that whenever they played the PI team....their focus was on Danny Florencio who he said was just amazing and the best forward he ever played against. He never was fond of Jaworski, probably biased for being a forward like Danny. He rated Boy Marquez, Sonny Reyes and Danny Florencio as the top players from the Philippines then.

dioning
10-30-2007, 10:32 PM
Brother Dioning,

Edad natin...napaghahalataan...hehehe. About Romy Diaz of FEU, did you know he also played for Ateneo? Of course medyo hindi naman natin siya puwede ilagay sa best Pinoy cager pound for pound kaya OT tayo. Nevertheless, I hereby nominate him for being one of the Top Ten onscreen Pinoy rapists of all time. Toss up sila ni Dick Ysrael for the number one slot...Hahahaha.

Welcome to Gameface, btw.


Not sure if Romy also played for the Blue Eagles but his brother Paquito certainly did. Paquito's basketball playing days was cut short after he was discovered by FPJ when the Blue Eagles played an exhibition game against the FPJ All-Stars. Ang alam kong Romy who played for Ateneo is kapamilya funnyman Romy Santos. Romy is the brother of kapuso funnyman Jimmy Santos who played for JRC and 7-Up.

Dapat siguro magkaroon ng thread tungkol sa mga ex-collegiate basketball players na nag showbiz.

Btw, I remember my Dad telling me that the Big J was a better player than the Big Diff. Napanood niya pareho ang dalawang ito. Si Loyzaga kasi was the tallest player then tapos may skills pa kaya siya nag dominate. There was no one as tall as him during those days. Pero si Big J daw ay ibang klase. Galing dumiskarte. Did you know na nag try-out si Jawo muna sa FEU bago siya kinuha ng UE? Kaya siya hindi nakuha ng FEU ay nabutas ang rubber shoes niya during try-outs at hindi siya daw makahanap ng vulcanizing shop para tapalan yung sole ng rubber shoes niya. I heard this from a TV interview of former FEU and Meralco stalwart Jing Aldanese a long time ago.

Danny Florencio naman was pirated by the Glowing Goldies from FEATI. Ang kakampi niya sa UST noon ay si Aric del Rosario. They lost to Jawo and the UE Warriors in a UAAP championship game in the mid-60's. Nagka-upakan pa nga ata. Jawo's team mates in the squad were Rudy Soriano and Rudy Kutch. Bago pa si Starsky and Hutch ay meron ng Jaworski and Kutch. Not sure kung naging kakampi din nila si Johnny Revilla.

Ang stars naman ng UP nung late 60's ay si Fort Acuna who also played for Toyota and Jumbo Jun Bernardino who's nickname at that time was Boca Boca.* *

gameface_one
10-30-2007, 11:21 PM
Brother Dioning,

Edad natin...napaghahalataan...hehehe. About Romy Diaz of FEU, did you know he also played for Ateneo? Of course medyo hindi naman natin siya puwede ilagay sa best Pinoy cager pound for pound kaya OT tayo. Nevertheless, I hereby nominate him for being one of the Top Ten onscreen Pinoy rapists of all time. Toss up sila ni Dick Ysrael for the number one slot...Hahahaha.

Welcome to Gameface, btw.


Not sure if Romy also played for the Blue Eagles but his brother Paquito certainly did. Paquito's basketball playing days was cut short after he was discovered by FPJ when the Blue Eagles played an exhibition game against the FPJ All-Stars. Ang alam kong Romy who played for Ateneo is kapamilya funnyman Romy Santos. Romy is the brother of kapuso funnyman Jimmy Santos who played for JRC and 7-Up.

Dapat siguro magkaroon ng thread tungkol sa mga ex-collegiate basketball players na nag showbiz.

Btw, I remember my Dad telling me that the Big J was a better player than the Big Diff. Napanood niya pareho ang dalawang ito. Si Loyzaga kasi was the tallest player then tapos may skills pa kaya siya nag dominate. There was no one as tall as him during those days. Pero si Big J daw ay ibang klase. Galing dumiskarte. Did you know na nag try-out si Jawo muna sa FEU bago siya kinuha ng UE? Kaya siya hindi nakuha ng FEU ay nabutas ang rubber shoes niya during try-outs at hindi siya daw makahanap ng vulcanizing shop para tapalan yung sole ng rubber shoes niya. I heard this from a TV interview of former FEU and Meralco stalwart Jing Aldanese a long time ago.

Danny Florencio naman was pirated by the Glowing Goldies from FEATI. Ang kakampi niya sa UST noon ay si Aric del Rosario. They lost to Jawo and the UE Warriors in a UAAP championship game in the mid-60's. Nagka-upakan pa nga ata. Jawo's team mates in the squad were Rudy Soriano and Rudy Kutch. Bago pa si Starsky and Hutch ay meron ng Jaworski and Kutch. Not sure kung naging kakampi din nila si Johnny Revilla.

Ang stars naman ng UP nung late 60's ay si Fort Acuna who also played for Toyota and Jumbo Jun Bernardino who's nickname at that time was Boca Boca.* *



Meron. It's in page 3 within this sub-forum under the thread Basketball on the Silver Screen.

Welcome to Gameface dioning. We are learning a lot from your posts. Keep it coming. :)

Jaco D
10-30-2007, 11:44 PM
Tikit awee....(if any of you still remember this signature phrase then you're certainly getting along in years)




Romy is the brother of kapuso funnyman Jimmy Santos who played for JRC and 7-Up.


"I lab yu tri tayms a dey"


If you still can't relate to those two snippets of Pinoy pop culture, you were still a sperm when most of the gamefacers here were learning the ropes in their respective inter-barangay, tsinelas, or driveway leagues (not that there's anything wrong with that).* ;D

Back to topic, tama ba ang obserbasyon ko na going back to the days when basketball was more of a team sport than it is today, Pinoy ballers were more evenly skilled vis-a-vis their peers than their asian neighbors? *Sokor had Shin Dong Pa while Japan had Taniguchi and to a lesser extent, Abe. *After them, medyo malaki na ang agwat in terms of skill. *The Koreans and Japanese lived or died depending *on how their main men performed. *Our coaches could pluck anyone from the bench, throw them into any situation and the latter could perform as expected (of course, there were also gems that stood out like Melencio's "leg-between-the-legs" shackling of Shin Dong Pa or Yoyong Martirez' carte blanche stealing of passes and turning the game into a greyhound race).* No one really stood out - there was always one or two guys riding shotgun who could step up when things didn't go as planned (or did go as planned).

I miss those days.

salsa caballero
10-31-2007, 10:15 AM
Brother Dioning,

Tama ka! My bad...it was Paquito, NOT Romy who played for Ateneo. I guess this means my Top Ten alltime onscreen rapists list just got extended to accomodate the great Paquito. All out yun in the remake of "Pinakamagandang Hayop Sa Balat Ng Lupa" starring Ruffa Gutierrez. Medyo first daring role ni Mrs. Yilmaz yun pero enjoy naman tayo hehehe ;) . (Mas preferred ko nga lang ang original starring Gloria Diaz.) Ayan, OT na naman tayo.

Anyhow, para nasa topic pa rin tayo, my choice for best Pinoy cager of all time would have to be Caloy Loyzaga. Corny ba? Wala lang, it's just that results can't be refuted. The Big Diff took us to number 3 in the world -- the highest ever place for an Asian country. His dominance of the NCAA and MICAA is likewise legendary, such that my Blue Eagles will probably always remember him as long as Ateneo lore is discussed. Again, this is all in the context of team play. Kung one-on-one ang usapan, i would say people like Don Ramon, Philip Cezar, Rey Lazaro and Samboy Lim would have to be at or near the top of the list.

Sige bro...kwento ka pa...tapos ipahula natin edad mo sa mga nagbabasa. Btw, may maraming ofc mate ang tru lab mo dito.




Not sure if Romy also played for the Blue Eagles but his brother Paquito certainly did. Paquito's basketball playing days was cut short after he was discovered by FPJ when the Blue Eagles played an exhibition game against the FPJ All-Stars. Ang alam kong Romy who played for Ateneo is kapamilya funnyman Romy Santos. Romy is the brother of kapuso funnyman Jimmy Santos who played for JRC and 7-Up.

dark_seid
10-31-2007, 04:06 PM
isn't the thread topic a bit misleading? it is the best pound for pound and not the best pinoy cager. from what i understood, pound for pound is (as termed in boxing) where you extrapolate the skills, speed, and power to a different weight class.

or did i misunderstand?

this is because when i first glance at the topic, i made a quick guess that johnny abarrientos at least gets his name in here. because it's pound for pound. guards/wings (like jaworski) or players displaying such abilities (like fernandez) gets a big advantage in such discussions.

Sam Miguel
10-31-2007, 04:13 PM
isn't the thread topic a bit misleading? it is the best pound for pound and not the best pinoy cager. from what i understood, pound for pound is (as termed in boxing) where you extrapolate the skills, speed, and power to a different weight class.

or did i misunderstand?

this is because when i first glance at the topic, i made a quick guess that johnny abarrientos at least gets his name in here. because it's pound for pound. guards/wings (like jaworski) or players displaying such abilities (like fernandez) gets a big advantage in such discussions.


I'd have to agree here.

Pound for pound I'd say Ramon Fernandez would then really have to take the cake. At a gangly 175 or so pounds on his 6-foot-5 frame he won four PBA MVP awards.

I'd have to agree with one observation here that Caloy Loyzaga was not referred to as The Big Difference for nothing, being arguably not just one of the most skilled but perhaps the biggest cager of his generation, coming in at an even 200 pounds and 6'3".

5-foot-10 Danny Florencio would be another top candidate, and of course so would the Big J.

The newer generation cagers like 6-foot-10 265-pound Asi Taulava and 6-foot-7 220-pound Kelley Williams would have to split maybe the next 10 MVP awards evenly between them to come close to the greatness of Fernandez et al.

Joescoundrel
09-15-2008, 11:08 AM
I can't believe this thread is dead... ???

The_Big_Cat
09-15-2008, 12:00 PM
Caloy Loyzaga, Ramon Fernandez and Alvin Patrimonio.

All three had stellar career at the international level. Loyzaga in the Olympics. Fernandez in the ABC Youth championships and Asian Games level. And Patrimonio in the Asian Games as well. I recall Patrimonio being named to the mythical five of the 1986 Seoul Asian Games and 1990 Beijing Asian Games.

pio_valenz
09-15-2008, 03:36 PM
^Actually I think it was Samboy Lim who was named to the 1990 Asiad Mythical Five. But I could be mistaken.

On-topic: may mga kaduda-dudang galaw si Fernandez eh. Mapapaisip ka talaga.

Ay, si Mon Fernandez ba ang pinag-uusapan? Sorry, akala ko si Benedict Fernandez. ;D

Joescoundrel
09-15-2008, 03:41 PM
^ I'd tend to agree. Wait, which Fernandez is this...?

The_Big_Cat
09-15-2008, 07:28 PM
^Actually I think it was Samboy Lim who was named to the 1990 Asiad Mythical Five. But I could be mistaken.

On-topic: may mga kaduda-dudang galaw si Fernandez eh. Mapapaisip ka talaga.

Ay, si Mon Fernandez ba ang pinag-uusapan? Sorry, akala ko si Benedict Fernandez.* ;D

Actually, may kaduda-dudang galaw din si Mon noon ng manager pa si Boy Saycon ng Toyota. ;D

shyboy
09-16-2008, 09:56 AM
Johnny Abbarientos.

LION
09-16-2008, 10:13 AM
Cris Bolado. He has the championship rings to prove it.

A-boy97
09-18-2008, 12:37 AM
Robert Jaworski! A guy in his 40's yet has the skills, talent, heart, and pure love for the game to compete with players in their prime. Very enigmatic player, either love him or hate him. Sayang wala pang PBA nung 20's niya. SAbi ng dad ko kung may PBA na nung kabataan ni Jawo, baka hanggang ngayon, walang tatalo sa dami ng MVP awards niya. Will never forget also the expression as regards to marital issues, "Parang si Jawo dumepensa sa higpit ng pagbantay sa asawa."

I dare say Jawo is the Michael Jordan of the Philippines in terms of greatness in the game but I think the more appropriate comparison is he is the Bob Cousy of Philippine basketball.

pepman
12-14-2008, 01:57 PM
Caloy Loyzaga, Alvin Patrimonio and Sonny Jaworski.

dioning
12-14-2008, 02:55 PM
Da Living Legend aka Da Big J

paul_theking
01-02-2009, 01:22 PM
The Tower of Power- Benjie Paras...

a_ron
01-02-2009, 02:07 PM
Puond for pound Allen Patrimonio..

Emon74
01-08-2009, 08:44 PM
Caloy Loyzaga is a giant nun time niya, for me, its still Jaworski, even at age 45 when his detractors began written him off, he would rise to the occasion and proved his critics wrong, Fernandez, Patrimonio, Lim and Caidic along with the Big J makes my lists as the five greatest filipino cagers of all time.

bchoter
01-10-2009, 07:54 PM
Longevity, yes. Pound-for-pound? I'd still go for Mon Fernandez, who was near Jawo's weight even if he was about 4 inches taller