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pachador
03-31-2007, 01:36 PM
if a filipino player who has been playing in the PBL decides he wants to study in the US, and lets say, an american NCAA university wanted to give him a spot on the school team and is given a scholarship, will the fact that this filipino player played in the PBL affect his eligibility to play in the US NCAA ?

thanks

Kid Cubao
03-31-2007, 05:15 PM
sa tingin ko pwede kasi amateur ang status ng PBL. remember that commissioner chino trinidad successfully won his fight to remove the PBL from the jurisdiction of the games and amusements board. in his creative jargon, players receive "allowances," not salaries in the league.

a little off-topic: i do recall australian legend andrew gaze suiting up for seton hall back in the late 80s. mukhang matanda na rin sya nung panahong yon, but can't really say whether he already played professionally or semi-professionally prior to his seton hall stint, where he was coached by PJ carlesimo. tingin ko he was already a pro in his native country when he played against the likes of glen rice and mookie blaylock in division 1 basketball action.

Mateen Cleaves
03-31-2007, 08:37 PM
It doesn't matter kung ano ang classification dito. Kesa allowance o salary ang tawag, any monetary benefit that a kid receives for playing basketball -- other than for scholarship -- will likely be grounds for ineligibility. Kahit ano pa ang sabihin ni chino, in the eyes of the NCAA, the PBL is a pro league. In hindsight, swerte din si Japeth Aguilar na walang nangyari sa pag-draft sa kanya ng Granny Goose.

pachador
03-31-2007, 10:30 PM
so would that mean that the recourse of a filipino player in the PBL who is not ready yet for PBA, but wants to gain more experience would be the ff:
big man's camp
minor leagues in the US, e.g. ABA, NBDL, etc
keep toiling in the PBL
any ideas?

Bennie Bangag
04-01-2007, 07:51 AM
It doesn't matter kung ano ang classification dito. Kesa allowance o salary ang tawag, any monetary benefit that a kid receives for playing basketball -- other than for scholarship -- will likely be grounds for ineligibility. Kahit ano pa ang sabihin ni chino, in the eyes of the NCAA, the PBL is a pro league. In hindsight, swerte din si Japeth Aguilar na walang nangyari sa pag-draft sa kanya ng Granny Goose

that may well be the case, but how about chris weinke, who at age 28 won the heisman trophy as quarterback of the florida state football team after spending many years in the toronto blue jays organization as a minor leaguer? or simeon rice, a defensive end for the tampa bay buccaneers who reportedly played in a semipro basketball league while in the university of illinois and yet never lost eligibility? i'm quite certain these two received more than "allowances."

Mateen Cleaves
04-01-2007, 08:09 AM
It doesn't matter kung ano ang classification dito. Kesa allowance o salary ang tawag, any monetary benefit that a kid receives for playing basketball -- other than for scholarship -- will likely be grounds for ineligibility.

that may well be the case, but how about chris weinke, who at age 28 won the heisman trophy as quarterback of the florida state football team after spending many years in the toronto blue jays organization as a minor leaguer? or simeon rice, a defensive end for the tampa bay buccaneers who reportedly played in a semipro basketball league while in the university of illinois and yet never lost eligibility? i'm quite certain these two received more than "allowances."


If they play minor league baseball, they cannot play NCAA baseball. but they can play another sport (AFAIK, this only applies to baseball. Definitely not basketball, not sure about hockey).

"Reportedly" doesn't count. It has to be proven. The only time that college players can play with pros in a league format are in summer pro-am leagues that are run in the various cities. Similar to the one that Japeth Aguilar joined in Chicago. Parang inter-baranggay natin. But even there, no allowances whatsoever in cash or kind.

They're so strict, you don't even have to receive money personally. There have been instances of players being suspended for playing in a charity game (i.e. basketball used to raise money) without prior NCAA approval.

razor
04-01-2007, 08:59 AM
^Yup. Essentially, a US NCAA player cannot receive any* form of benefit that is not available or given to the general student body. So even "allowances" from school boosters are prohibited (remember the Michigan-Chris Webber case).

bchoter
04-01-2007, 02:11 PM
If that were applied in the UAAP a lot of basketball programs will take a huge hit.

yungha
04-01-2007, 02:18 PM
i would have to agree with mateen on this one. in the us ncaa, you can't so much as accept a free meal or a new pair of sneakers or "complementary" athletic gear.

pachador, i'm just curious - are you looking to bring samigue eman to the states?

AnthonyServinio
04-01-2007, 02:37 PM
If that were applied in the UAAP a lot of basketball programs will take a huge hit.

* * *I am one person who will strongly bat for stricter rules to govern Philippine school leagues patterned after the United States' NCAA rules. NO college player should be allowed to play in the PBL or other commercial leagues during the length of his varsity eligibility. If he wants to play, he must renounce his eligibility and the scholarship if any.

* * *Some college teams have simply deteriorated to becoming junior professional commercial teams where players do not attend classes, deal with shady characters like gambling syndicates and unscrupulous sports agents and receive salaries disguised as allowances or gifts from both the school and outside supporters of the team.* What's more alarming is that this sometimes happens even in the high school division!

* * *Recruiting rules must be enforced to give all schools equal chances at the best players and for schools to keep the talents they have discovered and developed. There is a big and growing talent and competitiveness gap between the rich and the poor schools, especially those in the provinces whose talents are raided year in and year out by greedy Metro Manila-based recruiters only to be wasted in the big city.

* * *This is further compounded on how ABS-CBN has trivialized the UAAP and NCAA by turning the players into pseudo-movie stars who appear in commercials and fashion magazine spreads, turning off a lot of hardcore basketball purists.

* * *It's about time that the playing field be levelled and college basketball be purified and sanitized.

bchoter
04-01-2007, 04:22 PM
^ Careful Anthony. A sports official once made similar statements (re: levelling of the playing field) to the media and what he got in PEX was a lot of posts attaking his personalty without tackling the issue he raised. Some accused him of hipocrisy and some say it's a case of crab mentality.

shyboy
04-01-2007, 05:02 PM
In hindsight, swerte din si Japeth Aguilar na walang nangyari sa pag-draft sa kanya ng Granny Goose.


Di ba bawal maglaro sa US NCAA kahit di nakapaglaro basta drafted na?

Bennie Bangag
04-02-2007, 05:31 AM
shyboy, walang kaso dyan hangga't di pumirma ang draftee. japeth was advised to veto the granny goose drafting.

granted that the US NCAA bears down hard on violations committed stateside, has there been any incident in which a school or coach was sanctioned for recruiting violations overseas? for example, has there been any case in which a foreign player was declared ineligible for having accepted compensation of any kind in this era of open basketball? i am asking this in light of the latest developments in asian basketball, wherein top taiwanese and malaysian players have been recruited by US division 1 collegiate teams despite having played in commercial leagues back home. so i really don't know.

pachador
04-02-2007, 10:39 AM
no, i was just curious, but ,on the other hand if Eman wanted to go and a school was willing to get him, that opens opportunities for him. At the very least, it would be nice if the SBP-BAP select one 6'8" and higher player per year for 6 months of big man's camp training followed by another 6 months of play in the minor leagues in the US... parang scholarship sa mga higante ;D

speaking of leveling the field, its not only manila schools that does it, but if my memory is right some visayas schools such as Univ of Visayas, although I'm assuming that top schools such as ateneo or la salle probably have deeper pockets. if a way can be found to level the playing field then that would be the ideal, since it will have the effect of enabling players in the "B" teams of top schools to get more playing time since with the 'leveling the field" rule, there would probably be no more "B" teams or hoarding of players(stacking them up) plus the poorer schools will get better players.

On the other hand, I favor collegiate players joining commercial leagues such as PBL, etc because it will toughen them up(skills, experience, etc) since they will be playing against older ex-pros, etc

yungha
04-02-2007, 09:03 PM
In hindsight, swerte din si Japeth Aguilar na walang nangyari sa pag-draft sa kanya ng Granny Goose.


Di ba bawal maglaro sa US NCAA kahit di nakapaglaro basta drafted na?


that would be unfair to the player wouldn't it. any team could just sabotage a player's US NCAA college stint just by drafting him. and in the US NCAA, a player can declare for the NBA drafted, get drafted by an NBA team, and if he doesn't like his pro prospects, he can return to college and continue to play college ball. so if a player drafted by an NBA team no less can play, i don't see why the US NCAA won't allow a player drafted by the PBL. as long as he was merely drafted, of course, and didn't sign any contract or receive any form of salary.

pachador,

i agree on sending tall, promising kids to the states. if possible, send them as early as high school. playing in the states will help develop these kids more than playing in the PBL ever would.

BLUE HORSE
04-02-2007, 11:10 PM
Sali ako sa argument!

Mateen is partially correct but the US NCAA has a large loophole. This is how the loophole works. If a high school blue chipper is a can not miss prospect in 2 sports, such athlete can turn pro in the sport of his choice. The athlete basically renounces his amateur status in the said sports while retains his amateur status in the other sport. The name of Chris Weinke was mentioned, there are others.

The most recent example is Jeff Samardjiha (sorry for the wrong spelling) of Notre Dame is the 5th or 6th rank for this years NFL draft but no NFL team will waste a high draft pick on him until the 6th or 7th round. Why? Because he was drafted by the Chicago Cubs last season and played for the Cubs minor league team during the summer. Jeff basically gave up his amateur baseball career when he signed with the Cubs. If things do not pan out for him in baseball and he is not old enough, there will be some NFL team who will give him a look because he is a very tall 6' 5", fast and great hands who can also block downfield.

Chris Weinke and Henson of Michigan are football players who were drafted by a baseball team. They took the money of the baseball team. When both of their careers in baseball did not pan out they tried their hand in football. Weinke did his baseball tour straight out of high school while Henson gave up his last 2 years of college baseball but not his football careeer. Weinke came back to college football because he burned out of professional baseball at a young age and had not ran foul of the NCAA rule on age eligibility. Mamang mama si Chris when he played ball but did not amount to anything as a football player.

The NCAA frowns on athlete receiving money from boosters, agents and sporting goods manufacturers. The University of Michigan basketball team was stripped of its NCAA records during the Fab 5 career because their big guy received money from a booster/gambler. The University of Colorado had a star wide receiver who was also a world class skier. Jeremy Bloom sued the NCAA to be allowed to receive his stipend from the ski company that sponsors him but lost his case in court. He turned pro after the last winter olympics because the funding he received from the ski company was substantial.

A number of Serbian basketball players became ineligible by the NCAA because the players played club sports in Europe and received an allowance. There is very limited organized high school sports in Europe. The top European players come from club teams who work their way to the senior level before trying their luck in the NBA if they have an out clause in their contract. Those that are not good enough to play club sports are sometimes lucky in getting college offers because they are late bloomers. Some of the players are recruited as exchange students like Marko Batricevic of DLSU. They stay with a host family for a year or two and if they are good enough they get recruited to play college ball. Other promising athletes from Europe or Africa come to the States and attend "finishing" schools like Oak Hill Academy or Blair Academy in NJ.

Yes, Japeth Aguilar included his name in the PBL draft and he was drafted. He was told by ADMU officials that none of the ADMU players will be allowed to play in the PBL unless they are seniors. School administrators wanted all of the ADMU players to leave ADMU when their eligibility was up with a college diploma. This was one point that recruiters stressed to Peter and Japeth during his recruitment. Some DLSU fans wished that Maierhofer would get the same opportunity as Japeth. What they forgot was the fact that Maierhofer had played in the PBL previously.

Oks lang sa NCAA if the athlete gets support from the central goverment but frown if the "allowance/salary" comes from an organized club team that is advertising a specific product.

Will a division 1 school offer an athletic scholarship to man-child Gian Chiu? Gian Chiu is posting double double for his school but he plays in a weak league and has limited exposure to top flight competition. Surely, a team can use a 6' 8-9" banger with good smarts like Gian. But will he sign with just any division 1 school given that he has grades and test scores good enough for the Ivy league. Kaso, the Ivy league schools do not offer athletic scholarships but only based on need.

pachador
04-03-2007, 03:04 AM
my topic question also stems from the fact that the continuing dominance of fil-am players(generally speaking) is a glaring indication that the skills and fundamentals of home-grown players leaves a lot to be desired contrary to the popular notion , stoked by our egos* ;D* *( dont flame me)* that home-grown players are among the best-skilled in the world?? !! otherwise, local coaches would have preferred home-grown players.

The short-term solution is to send 1 or 2 or more of the most promising home-growns abroad every year(e.g. to the U.S. or europe) The long-term and/or parallel solution is to have a systematic grass-roots program starting from elementary to high school and on to college and afterwards for all barangays, and schools

The litmus test to the effectiveness of the grassroots program will be seen when less and less fil-am players will be drafted, and more and more home-growns will make the grade.

BLUE HORSE
04-03-2007, 03:23 AM
The big advantage of Fil-Am players are their size. Malusog ang mga players even those not coming from well to do family. Those player that show potential at an early age get the necessary trainning in school. Parents are also tasked by their children to enroll them in off season camps and be part of traveling teams to hone their skills against other. Aside from playing, the athletes start weight trainning at a much earlier age than athletes in the country.

MonL
04-03-2007, 10:08 AM
no, i was just curious, but ,on the other hand if Eman wanted to go and a school was willing to get him, that opens opportunities for him. At the very least, it would be nice if the SBP-BAP select one 6'8" and higher player per year for 6 months of big man's camp training followed by another 6 months of play in the minor leagues in the US... parang scholarship sa mga higante * ;D

On the other hand, I favor collegiate players joining commercial leagues such as PBL, etc because it will toughen them up(skills, experience, etc) since they will be playing against older ex-pros, etc



How often does the opportunity to play in a good US collegiate program come? That would entail “selling” to the prospective teams the capability of the player to play at that level. Plus the number of “local” prospects of equal height and position trying to get a spot on a collegiate team are so much that the chances of foreign players with comparable talent are daunting. We saw that in Japheth’s case. The more realistic route would be to send players overseas for a period of time for specialized training. However that's a highly patron-dependent undertaking. The way it is now with sports agencies, there is almost always inadequate (or NO) government funding for specific programs, and most of the time the expenses shouldered on "extra mile" projects such as overseas training are done by a group of deep-pocketed private individuals or sponsoring corporations. As far as playing in minor leagues there are concerned, what minor leagues did you have in mind? The closest thing to this was the Centennial Team’s barnstorming US tour where they played tune-up games with(and brawled with ;D) US Collegiate teams.

pachador
04-03-2007, 12:01 PM
well, after all, we are Pacquiao's countrymen* :D ..... which makes me wonder if our past national basketball teams rank in the top 5 in the world (or maybe # 1 ? ) in terms of brawls or fights initiated with foreign teams..... I can see a future brawl coming up specially with Pennisi in the line-up* ;D , and then I can see the frustration level of the foreign teams due to the suffocating defense that will be put up by our guards....its rambol time.... the national team players should get tips in the fine art of brawling from Villanueva, distrito and Jawo..... it may come in handy sooner than we think* ;) seriously, since we will be playing much bigger opponents, our players might get beaten-up if their foreign opponents get frustrated. I was thinking that the team should get a "back-up staff" who will actually be bodyguards...... maybe bring along Batista, Hatfield, Enrico villanueva, and three martial arts guys ,etc . sayang naman kung ma-pilay sa rambol ang multi-million pesos players ng PBA.




the Centennial Team’s barnstorming US tour where they played tune-up games with(and brawled with ;D) US Collegiate teams.