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Sam Miguel
10-24-2006, 06:34 PM
I often wonder how players from different eras would fare if they ever played against each other in their respective primes.

Could the Ramon Fernandez of his 1982 MVP year beat the Benjie Paras of his 1989 Rookie MVP year?

Could the 1978 Danny Florencio beat the 1986 Samboy Lim?

Could the 1977 Bogs Adornado beat the 1990 Allan Caidic?

Could the 1976 Yoyong Martirez beat the 1996 Johnny Abarrientos?

Could the 1990 Alvin Patrimonio beat the 2002 Danny Ildefonso?

Could the 1984 Yoyoy Villamin beat the 1994 Nelson Asaytono?

The rules are simple:

1. It has to be one-on-one.
2. It has to use present day PBA rules and regulations.
3. It has to involve PBA players only.
4. The two players must not have come into the PBA within five years of each other i.e. Player A entered the PBA in 1994, so his matchup player B must have entered the PBA no earlier than 1999. [Five years is standard college tenure plus one extra year, long enough to be defined as an era, and thus different eras, at least in the hoops book according to Sam Miguel]

What do you fellows think of the above matchups?

Do you have other matchups in mind?*

Kid Cubao
10-25-2006, 05:49 AM
panong one on one rules, sam miguel? di mo nilinaw kung playground rules (i. e. ball possession after a score goes back to the scorer) or indiana rules (i. e. pag na-shoot mo, possession goes to the defensive player). i think this is the more critical aspect that we overlooked.

in case it's playground rules, advantage always goes to the player with better one-on-one skills. parang patak ng kuntador ang score para sa opensa yan. on the other hand, pag indiana rules, defense gets the upper hand.

easter
10-25-2006, 07:18 AM
I made a somewhat similar thread about one-on-ones before. It was geared towards college hoops instead.
You can find it in the link below.

http://www.gameface.ph/forums/index.php?topic=407.0

Sam Miguel
10-25-2006, 02:11 PM
My apologies Cubao. We'll do it the more egalitarian way: possesion switches after a made basket.

Easter, yes, now I remember your thread. I kind of love these fantasy exercises. It would make for a great Twilight Zone episode, heh-heh... (For those of you too young to remember just search it on the Net...)

Let me start with the Fernandez-Paras matchup.

Overview __

Ramon Fernandez is arguably the best PBA player ever. As a slender 6-foot-5 180-pound center he had the skills and shrewdness of a guard and the overall versatility of a forward, truly one player who can legitimately claim to play all five positions with aplomb. Fernandez is a 4-time MVP and either at the top or second to the top in nearly every meaningful statistical category.

Benjie Paras ushered in a new generation of baller when he entered the PBA as a powerhouse rookie in 1989, making history by becoming the league's first ever rookie MVP. He had limited skills as a rookie and his best shot was a dunk, but the frequency of his dunking back in that mythical season was ridiculous. At 6-foot-5 and a strapping 210 pounds he truly earned his monicker as the Tower of Power.

Scoring __

Fernandez could score in a variety of ways, from his patented Elegant Shot to his stretching layups off spin moves at the post, from high post drives to pull-up jumpshots. It was this offensive versatility that made him unstoppable as a scorer. He could outquick, outstep and outmaneuver bigger and stronger players, and he could easily shoot over any smaller player.

Paras in his rookie year was all power. He had terrible shooting form and touch as evidenced by his poor foul shooting as well as his unwillingness to take a shot if it was not within five feet of the basket. But because of his sheer brute strength he could easily scatter even double teams from the low post. And he could literally position himself anywhere he wanted.

Floor Game __

Fernandez cold dribble almost as low as a pointguard and could do so without looking at the ball like any other guard. He could run the fastbreak after getting a rebound just as easily as being the anchor on that break. He could also move very well without the ball, and his range made him a tough customer for any defender.

Paras was not much of a ballhandler as a rookie, and hardly took more than two or three dribbles before either powering up for a close-range shot or giving up the ball. Certainly he was not capable of running a fastbreak. But he did not need to be that good a ballhandler given his favorite position on the court, just under the basket.

Defense __

Fernandez blocked a lot of shots and got a lot of rebounds on a 50-50 combination of size and superior positioning. He was not the most athletic or strongest player of his time, and he was not even the best at rebounding or blocks with the likes of Abet Guidaben, Abe King, Philip Cezar and even Yoyoy Villamin around. But Fernandez was always a highly intelligent player who accentuated his strengths and minimized his weaknesses. He was always a good position defender with active hands and he knew, some say even invented, all the tricks on defense.

Paras in his rookie year was simply a monster, with 30-20 games practically commonplace for the Tower of Power. Paras was big, strong, athletic and thus highly intimidating. He collared rebounds and blocked shots like nobody's business, once blocking Jerry Codinera then Alvin Patrimonio twice in a single sequence. He did not need to know the tricks Fernandez knew because he was so gifted for his time. Getting around him was tough considering his underrated footspeed as well as his strength and size.

One On One __

If they played a 12-minute PBA quarter Fernandez wold have the advantage in terms of his ability to score from more places. But because the ball goes back to the defense Paras would have every opportunity to simply power into Fernandez. Ultimately this will come down to a game of possesions: whoever gets luckier with more possesions will win the game. Any miss here would be crucial, especially if Fernandez takes his chances with his jumpshooting as well as his Elegant Shot. If any of those shots clank Paras will surely be able to grab the rebound, take the ball out just enough then power to the rim. But if Fernandez maximizes his ballhandling ability to slip past Paras from the perimeter, Fernandez could get first score and think of a way to just hold off Paras all the way to the end. Paras for his part will have to use his superior strength and athleticism to try and bully Fernandez into taking awkward shots, hope for misses then grab the rebounds and put the ball back.

All told it looks like Paras - with his superior size and stength - will win this battle of the PBA's best bigmen ever.

Kid Cubao
10-25-2006, 03:29 PM
in that case, this is how i think it will go:

fernandez vs paras= tingin ko si el presidente ang mananalo. paras is a good low post defender, but definitely no perimeter defender. el presidente will simply take the game outside, unleash his killer head and shoulder fakes to throw off paras, and it'll be a score each time for don ramon. paras will most likely be stripped of the ball when he dribbles it. the only player who can check fernandez is chito loyzaga. pag naglaban yang dalawang yan, tingnan natin kung makaiskor si don ramon.

danny florencio vs samboy lim= no contest, it'll be the dragon who'll win this. samboy is a vastly underrated shotblocker, and he'll be able to keep in step with the original reverse layup artist of the PBA. danny's too small to go up against samboy, and too limited in his arsenal.

bogs adornado vs allan caidic= YAN ANG MAGANDANG LABAN. kung shooting lang, walang tulak kabigin hetong dalawa. it'll boil down to who's a better defender, and in that case, the very slight edge goes to the triggerman. if you have these two in the current national team, let's see if any team out there will continue to zone us.

yoyong martirez vs johnny A= definitely abarrientos. walang opensa whatsoever si yoyong, although he's a better defender than johnny A. nevertheless, johnny A at his prime is the best scoring point guard in PBA history.

alvin patrimonio vs danny I= no way anyone can beat alvin patrimonio one on one at his prime, not even chito loyzaga. erik menk almost quit the PBA after the captain took him to school in his first game as a PBA pro. danny I only became a force after he was surrounded by a host of all stars in danny seigle, nic belasco, dorian pena, and olsen racela. besides, the knock on danny ildefonso is that he disappears when the chips are down. in contrast, patrimonio is the personifaction of courage under pressure.

yoyoy villamin vs nelson asaytono= lamang si nelson, for the simple reason that asaytono has off the dribble moves. yoyoy villamin has to be set up inside the post in order to score. but in terms of banging, tabla sila.

MonL
10-25-2006, 04:26 PM
I recall that the PBA had a long-range shooting contest way back in its first decade featuring Adornado, Estoy Estrada, Jun Papa, Jimmy Mariano, Joy Cleofas, Botchok delos Santos, among others. Mariano was the winner. He was the player then with the longest range. Bogs was more consistent with his medium range jumpers though, but for long range bombing, look then for Papa and Jimmy M. Had threes been introduced back in their time, they'd be credited with 3 points instead of two from the spots they took their shots on court. In time the descriptive term "long tom" ceased to be used. Other descriptive words like "rainbow shots" or "from downtown" became buzzwords.* Was it a coincidence or providence that another lefty in Caidic exceeded Mariano's exploits at UE and the PBA? He equalled Papa and Mariano in range, but he, hands down, was faster, quicker and more capable of countering the more physical defenses of his generation. Choose any of the shooters from the early years, and Caidic would probably win and not have a difficult time against any of them.

Joescoundrel
10-25-2006, 06:34 PM
Whatever they feed the players in Wang-bu's beloved UE they must have some sort of long-tom vitamin supplement. UE has produced some of the best long range shooters in the PBA: Allan Caidic, Jimmy Mariano, Sonny Jaworski, James Yap, the brothers Villarias. Even those who did not quite make the PBA were superb shooters: Olan Omiping, Bobby Diloy, Jojit Duremdes, Jun Catalan, Wowie Ibanez. These current warriors have Jorel Canizares, Bon Custodio, Toto Bandaying, Marcy Arellano and James Martinez. There must really be something to that 1000 shots a day drill...

Wang-Bu
10-26-2006, 03:43 PM
Ito maganda: Onchie Dela Cruz kontra Jimwell Torion.

Lamang si Onchie gawa ng mas malaki siya, pero hindi naman papalamang sa bilis si Jimwell. Mas may pukol si Jimwell mula sa labas pero mas matigas naman si Onchie pagdating sa drive. Kung sa depensahan mas magulang si Onchie pero mas tigasin naman sa pangangatawan si Jimwell. Nakwento sa'kin dati ni Harmon Codinera na dinadaan ni Onchie sa gulang ang depensa kasi madali siyang hingalin at hindi ganun katigas ang pangangatawan niya gawa ng bisyo. Si Jimwell naman mula pa nung amateur sa Bisayas matikas ng katawan at mabilis.

Pero ang pinakamaganda niyan mag-UFC na lang sila o kaya Bakabakan International-style na barugan, tancha ko lang mas matutuwa ang sino mang makakapanood ng ganung labanan ng dalawang magan.

bluebruiser90
10-27-2006, 06:58 AM
Kay Onchie ako. Ito pa lang ang nakita kong rookie na umastang papalag ng tirahan at bugbugan kay Alamat sa PBA. Hanggang ngayon pag nakasalubong mo si Onchie sa kalye, matatakot ka pa.

Kid Cubao
10-27-2006, 08:32 AM
off topic: onchie de la cruz is now a reputable car dealer in the caloocan-navotas-malabon area :) he returned to the country after a decade-long exile in the states. said he's back for good. bokalbs na sya, at lalong lumaki ang tyan. yet he's still the best player in the highly-competitive midnight leagues in caloocan. oo, tirador to the max pa rin ang loko.

Wang-Bu
10-27-2006, 08:51 PM
Alala ko nga 'yung mga birahan nila Alamat at Onchie, siempre lamang pa din sa gulang si Idol ko, pero matinding makipagbakabakan si Onchie. Alala ko din si Onchie nag-RP Team pa sa SEA Games nung 1993 yata, nung hindi naglaro ang mga gaya nina Jeff Cariaso, Kenneth Durmedes at Marlou Aquino. Sigaw ba naman ni Onchie kada-laro "PATAY KUNG PATAY!"

Pero tancha ko naman may laban pa din si Jimwell kung laro at laro rin lang ang pag-uusapan. Kahit nung kabataan ni Onchie hindi naman siya kabilisan, talagang dinadaan lahat sa diskarte. Si Jimwell mas typical sa mga modernong player, kahit gago may skills pa din.

Wang-Bu
10-30-2006, 03:26 PM
Sa salpukang Patrimonio versus Ildefonso mukhang magandang matchup 'yon.

4-time MVP si Cap, 2-time MVP naman si Raise-Da-Roof.

Kung sa pangkalahatang galing mas maganda ang skills package nung Ildefonso, bukod pa sa mas malaki siya. Si Ildefonso nasa 6'5" at 200 pounds, si Patrimonio naman 6'3" at 190 pounds. Mas mataas tumalon si Ildefonso at tancha ko lang mas mabilis tumakbo. Pero lamang naman sa poste si Cap, ang talinong maglaro ni Patrimonio basta nasa poste, kaya nga ultimo import hirap sa kanya. Mas pasensiyoso kasi na maghanap ng magandang diskarte si Cap. Pero mas consistent naman ang pukol ni Ildefonso, kahit na sabihin pang nakagawa din naman mula sa rainbow country si Cap. Hindi jumpshot ang laro ni Cap, talagang hilig niya dikdikan sa poste. Si Ildefonso naman kasi nagumpisang patpatin, kaya natutong gumawa ng hindi masyadong kailangan ng barugan at lakas.

Sa ganitong labanan hindi ko din masasabing merong lamang na lamang pagdating sa puso. Hindi naman siguro magiging isang MVP ng PBA ang sinoman ng walang tapang at lakas ng loob. Kung sa likas na galing lang at pagiging atleta ang usapan, kay Ildefonso na ako, lamang siya sa lahat ng natural na skills ng isang manlalaro, mahihirapan si Cap sa kanya lalo pa't mas malaki at mas mataas siyang tumalon.

Kid Cubao
10-30-2006, 06:50 PM
no way anyone can beat patrimonio at his prime. not even kenny redfield, ronnie thompkins, and all those great mid-sized PBA imports in the early to mid 90s could stop him inside when the going gets rough. danny ildefonso couldn't even hold his own against the likes of dennis espino. pasalamat sya naging kakampi nya si freddie abuda sa san miguel. how danny I got his MVP awards is even subject for debate because each time he won them, san miguel went on to lose in the finals.

easter
10-30-2006, 07:19 PM
Agree ako kay Kid Cubao.

Walang tatalo kay Patrimonio ng one-on-one during his prime. Kahit mas malaki si Ildefonso, mas matindi ang shooting arm at post moves ni Patrimonio. Naalala ko pa dat na triple team na ang binibigay kay Patrimonio, lusot pa rin eh.

joelex
11-01-2006, 03:44 AM
malupit talaga si cap. pero sa palagay ko, iba na ang mga player ngayon, mas matatangkad at mas kondisyon.
dati dati, centro na ang 6-3, ngayon, gwardiya na lang. karaniwang centro ngayon 6-6 pataas. nung dumating ang mga tulad ni eric menk, nag adjust na din si alvin, mas naglalaro na sa perimeter dahil hirap na sa loob.

walang duda sa talento at kakayahan ng tulad ni patrimonio, pero sa tingin ko lang, hirap na makipagsabayan ang mga dating malalaking mama sa laro ngayon na nadodominahan na ng mas matatangkad na player.

Kid Cubao
11-01-2006, 06:44 AM
well, the captain was already on the downward arc of his career when the wave of fil-ams reached local shores. moreover, he was already feeling the pains of accumulated wear and tear for being the PBA's iron man by playing the most number of consecutive games in local history. that's why he had to retool his game not only because he suddenly became average-sized upon the arrival of asi and company, but also because his body could no longer take the pounding when he plays with his back to the basket. but yes, i agree, mahirap nang maging low post operator ngayon kung maliit ka pa sa 6'5.

Sam Miguel
11-02-2006, 05:22 PM
Alvin Patrimonio was never known as a big leaper or even for being a superior athlete, he was simply a superb basketball player who played to his strengths. Size however would indeed be a factor in a matchup against the bigger Danny Ildefonso. This is after all a one-on-one matchup, no teammates to get you the ball, no help on defense, on one else to box out or chase after rebounds. In this kind of a context I believe Danny I would win over Cap. Ildefonso belongs to that generation of player that simply has too many skills for an older, traditional post-up power forward like Patrimonio to stop in a one-on-one contest. It won't be an easy win, Cap has too much pride, but Cap in his prime versus Danny I in his, well, there's too much going for Ildefonso in terms of size and skill.

I can see Ildefonso shooting over Patrimonio all day, maybe even getting by him a few times with a crossover dribble. (Patrimonio was never anything special on defense even in his prime, especially against bigger and stronger players like his contemporary Benjie Paras and later on Noli Locsin, never mind a multiskilled bigman like Ildefonso.) On the other hand, Cap would have to find a way to post himself up, perhaps start dribbling from the high post with the basket to his back and then operate as if he were in the low post. Ildefonso has better instincts on defense and doesn't bite too easily on up-fakes or head fakes, a Cap staple on offense. Cap will find ways to score, but Ildefonso has more offense. And in a one-on-one situation, better offense will win 9-out of-10.

Joescoundrel
11-03-2006, 01:49 PM
In his prime I used to watch Alvin "Face" Patrimonio whenever Purefoods had a practise session at the Loyola Center (Blue Eagle Gym to you younger ones). In between drills and scrimmages the players would always have these one-on-one contests complete with 5-10-15 "lusutan". That means first to reach a certain score - in this case first to reach five, to and 15 points - gets to have the opponent crawl through in between his legs. Face was quite a one-on-one player, rarely if ever going through anyone's legs. He shot over the heads of smaller and faster players like Dindo Pumaren and Al Solis, then he routinely outmanuevered bigger and stronger players like Jerry Codinera and Jack Tanuan. But the one guy he couldn't beat one on one was Nelson Asaytono. Asaytono could do everything Face could do but Face could not do everything Asaytono could do. I wonder how that translates against Danny Ildefonso though?

Jeep
11-03-2006, 02:10 PM
But the one guy he couldn't beat one on one was Nelson Asaytono. Asaytono could do everything Face could do but Face could not do everything Asaytono could do. I wonder how that translates against Danny Ildefonso though?


kaya nga medyo hinayang din ako kay nelson. he could've quit at the top of his game, but i guess he just loves the game too much to know that it's time to quit, long after his contemporaries patrimonio and jerry codiņera have put their shoes away. one can still catch nelson at the NBC games on prime channel that covers the games down south. mandarambong pa rin si nelson, lalo na kung isolation ang ibibigay sa kanya -- and i use the word with all the awe and reverence i can muster.

Sam Miguel
11-06-2006, 09:13 PM
Nelson Asaytono is indeed in a class of his own. If he wasn't an occasional headcase he could've easily been the cream of the 1989 draft class aside form Benjie Paras, Bong Alvarez and Dindo Pumaren.

Joescoundrel
11-16-2006, 03:36 PM
Speaking of headcases Sam, try this on for size: One on one of headcases - Wesley Gonzalez versus Nap Hatton, Joseph Yeo versus Bong Alvarez.

bluebruiser90
11-17-2006, 06:42 AM
Joe,

Iba na yang si Nap, talagang may kulang na tornilyo. Galing sa ibang mundo, nag crossover lang. Mas magandang match up pa yata si Nap at si Moses Mulong. Magsusuntukan yang dalawa bago matapos ang laro.

sa_pula
11-17-2006, 05:22 PM
how about mark caguioa vs francis arnaiz or jj helterbrand vs jawo ;D.

Wang-Bu
11-21-2006, 06:54 PM
how about mark caguioa vs francis arnaiz or jj helterbrand vs jawo* ;D.


Silang lahat kontra Jawo, kay Jawo ako.

Kid Cubao
11-22-2006, 09:07 AM
Joe,

Iba na yang si Nap, talagang may kulang na tornilyo. Galing sa ibang mundo, nag crossover lang. Mas magandang match up pa yata si Nap at si Moses Mulong. Magsusuntukan yang dalawa bago matapos ang laro.

tama kayo. kung di ako nagkakamali, naka-away nya minsan yung sarili nyang kakampi sa praktis at nabalian ng kaliwang kamay yung loko. nasa pepsi pa ata sya nun, at si toying teves ata yung ka-upakan nya. binitiwan na sya pagkatapos nung insidenteng yun.

Wang-Bu
11-24-2006, 02:00 PM
Kwento sa'kin nina Toying Teves nung nasa Baste pa sila ultimo sarili niya inaaway ni Nap. As in nakikipag-argumento sa sarili ang ulol...

Emon74
11-29-2010, 07:17 AM
how about mark caguioa vs francis arnaiz or jj helterbrand vs jawo ;D.


Revived this thread, Saw it on PEX, someone mentions pag pabilisan ng takbo the fast and the furious would be flat tire para kay Jawo and Mr.Clutch ;D