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Agent 008
04-03-2006, 10:09 AM
It seems to me that the overseas recruiting has been big business as evidenced by the show of interest in the coming UAAP/NCAA line-ups. Who's going where? Who's attending the tryouts? Is he eligible...etc. Fil-Ams are peppered all over the PBA and it has spilled over to the amateur ranks. So what do the Gamefacers think about this?

Good competition? Recipe for corruption? Raises the game's standards? Takes away food from the local boys' plate?

How will it affect our local amateur leagues?

LION
04-03-2006, 10:42 AM
^ I agree with your observations Agent. The hunt for the taller, bigger and more skilled players has gone overseas.

In the 80's and 90's, there were fil - ams who played in the UAAP and the NCAA. The only thing is that they were not really recruited to play. The situation now is different. The "rich school/s", with its/their plentiful money, institutionalized the overseas recruitment starting in the 90's.

How will it affect the amateur league? Well, all we have to do is look at the PBA and how its rating has consistently dropped over the years.

Kid Cubao
04-03-2006, 10:44 AM
my take is that the influx of fil-foreigners shall benefit local basketball in the long run. that being said, it goes without saying that the natural pecking order of talent will be upset in the short run. one just has to look at the draft order.

i don't really get overly worked up on the idea that the influx of fil-ams will displace local talent. di hamak na mas marami pa rin ang homegrown sa mga dayo. besides, the darwinian process of separating those with clear pro potential from the also-rans will always come into play, which means there'll always be someone better than you eventually. for every jeffrey cariaso, jimmy alapag and nic belasco who contributed to the overall rise in the talent level in the PBA, there lies strewn on the wayside the names of kenny evans, jon ordonio, rob johnson, kim valenzuela, and many others.

MonL
04-03-2006, 10:54 AM
my take is that the influx of fil-foreigners shall benefit local basketball in the long run. that being said, it goes without saying that the natural pecking order of talent will be upset in the short run. one just has to look at the draft order.

i don't really get overly worked up on the idea that the influx of fil-ams will displace local talent. di hamak na mas marami pa rin ang homegrown sa mga dayo. besides, the darwinian process of separating those with clear pro potential from the also-rans will always come into play, which means there'll always be someone better than you eventually. for every jeffrey cariaso, jimmy alapag and nic belasco who contributed to the overall rise in the talent level in the PBA, there lies strewn on the wayside the names of kenny evans, jon ordonio, rob johnson, kim valenzuela, and many others.


It's also a matter of technology transfer. Give the proven training techniques employed overseas to our grassroots players up to the collegiate level, and the homegrown players will give the fil-fors a run for their money. Have you wondered why the best and most successful coaches in the country now go overseas for training, too? Diskarte and gulang which is the staple of successful coaching decades ago will just not cut it now.

AnthonyServinio
04-03-2006, 10:56 AM
I DO NOT LIKE FIL-FOREIGNERS, THEY SHOULD STAY WHERE THEY CAME FROM.

bchoter
04-03-2006, 11:11 AM
If there ever was a benefit in playing these foreign-breds (pinoys, shams, or imports) I have yet to see our country benefiting from it. Foreign-trained coaches have contributed more then the players.

Kid Cubao
04-03-2006, 11:15 AM
If there ever was a benefit in playing these foreign-breds (pinoys, shams, or imports) I have yet to see our country benefiting from it. Foreign-trained coaches have contributed more then the players.


the 1985 jones cup. the 1986 ABC title. the 1998 jones cup and the 3rd place finish at the chiang mai asian games.

bchoter
04-03-2006, 11:53 AM
If there ever was a benefit in playing these foreign-breds (pinoys, shams, or imports) I have yet to see our country benefiting from it. Foreign-trained coaches have contributed more then the players.


the 1985 jones cup. the 1986 ABC title. the 1998 jones cup and the 3rd place finish at the chiang mai asian games.
I was thinking more in the lines of "technology transfer". Some have mentioned that playing against players trained abroad will make the local-bred players better. But I have yet to see a tangible efect of this. Contrast this to what coach Jacob's has done to Philippine basketball. Or the Pinoy coaches who train abroad. I just don't buy the reason being given by Fil-for advocates that these guys should be allowed to play for "technology transfer's" sake. They should be allowed because is is within their rights as citizens

Agent 008
04-03-2006, 01:02 PM
Easy lang Anthony Severino...ang puso mo ;D But I understand where you are coming from.

I also like Bchoter's opinion in that foreign and foreign-trained coaches seem to contribute more to the quality of the local game than the foreign-bred players themselves.

Side note: Watching the Ginebra-Alaska game last night...there was a point where majority of the players on the court were Fil-foreigners. Makes you think..hmmmm...what the "bleep" is going on here?

Kid Cubao
04-03-2006, 01:33 PM
the "tech transfer" monL is referring to most often occurs in practice, when the team members interact most closely with each other. that's how the little things that often spell success are transferred from the fil-foreign player to the pinoy homegrown player--you know, like how ali peek would teach somebody like gilbert lao how to defend asi or terquin mott. or like when chip engelland would give valuable shooting pointers to the likes of franz pumaren and elmer reyes during practice lulls.

Joescoundrel
04-03-2006, 02:44 PM
I really don't see what all the fuss is about. If I were the PBA I would even go so far as to take the NBA route: open the league to anybody who wants to play. Heck there are only nine teams right now anyway, maybe ten when the WelBest people finally come in. That's only roughly 120-140 secure jobs (12-14 regular players per roster). I'd love to see what else is out there in terms of basketball talent competing right here in Philippine shores. The league could always impose some rules like a maximum of four foreign players per team and you can play only two of them at a time. Plus every player gets paid in Philippine Pesos and pays local taxes accordingly. If a foreign player doesn't want that deal then he can simply up and leave.

For godsakes, who the hell really wants to see the likes of Dodot Jaworski, Jun Limpot, Mac Cuan, Gilbert Lao and (however briefly) Epok Quimpo in the PBA anyway? As long as we see real basketball - even if its only semi-entertaining basketball - I'd sooner take that then some of the shit we have now.

oca
04-04-2006, 09:37 AM
In the UAAP, current rules does not really accomodate "foreign talents". As only 1 "non-Fiipino passport holder" can play at a time. Also there is the 2 year residency requirement.

No point for a school to load their team with this kind of talents, when infact their presence cannot be optimized on court.

IMO, in the UAAP, we won't be seeing an influx of this Fil-Fors. Regardless how many are brought over by recruiters/ scouts/ alumni, whatever you call them.

But, in the NCAA, it may be different. Correct me if I am wrong, but the UAAP "on-court limitation" stated above is absent in the NC' rule book; and NC' rules require just a 1 year residency.

So, if we are to determine how this scenario would affect local basketball, the NCAA will serve as our laboratory.

But let me ask, if so many Fil-Fors are coming or being recruited, how many NC' schools are appealing enough for the player and their parents? That is if their intention is to earn a college degree, and maybe play pro basketball if the opportunity presents itself.

But if they simply want an entry point for a possible basketball career here, then I suppose any school would do. It may not even belong to the NCAA or UAAP.

But what's the point of coming here and play in a college league that does not give them the* exposure they need to market themselves?

IMO, opportunities for fil-for college kids to play basketball here are "limited". Hence, we may not see an influx of talent to really deprive homegrown kids of their spots.

In the next 2-3 years we may see them coming in numbers, but when the rosters are filled up, when eligibility rules stand their way, they may find themselves waiting in line too long to make things attractive.

Yes, we will see them in higher quatity compared to past years, but not in numbers that will deprive the local college kids of opportunities.

Pero, kung PBL ang pag-uusapan...

We know this league exist primarily as a stage for those aspiring to play in the PBA. So let them play.

But then, with the PBA limited to so many teams, how many fil-fors can the pro league take? May saturation point ang lahat, uness the PBA expands its membership, then there really isn't much room for all.

Take note, the past 2 or 3 years, not many Fil-Fors have entered the league. Aside of course nagkahigpitan sa eligibility, but wala ng paglalagyan ang players. Si Washington nga tumataba na....

Eventually, everyone will have to wait in line... IMO, diyan magkakatalo. Sino ang matiyaga?

Lucas Palaka
04-04-2006, 09:53 AM
tingin ko di naman tayo dadagsain ng mga fil-foreigners gaya nang dati because i think its novelty value has worn off from the time erik menk, asi and company first arrived back in 1997-98. ikalawa, nagkahigpitan na ng patakaran kaya di na rin mauulit yung nangyari kay mark caguioa, na bumulaga sa madla nung kinuha ng ginebra.

pero kung fil-foreigners at pure pinoy ang pagpipilian, dun ako sa mas magaling.

Agent 008
04-05-2006, 05:23 PM
Lucas, sino nga ba ang mas magaling ;D

Konting detour lang po..may pag-asa pa bang mag-PBA si PBL standout Alex Compton? Meron bang nakaka-alam about his application? Akala ko bibigyan siya ng special pass ng PBA this year?

Agent 008
04-06-2006, 06:35 PM
Just to add on Compton...

This guy is more pinoy than tuyo and champorado in the morning, adobo for lunch, bananacue for merienda and sisig for dinner/pulutan. I'd just like to see him play with the big boys before his game takes a dive.

Kid Cubao
04-07-2006, 08:08 AM
the deal with alex compton is that he needs a majority vote from the PBA board of governors to be finally greenlighted in the pro league. now if you ask the team reps to a man if they welcome the idea of alex compton playing in the PBA, each will unequivocally say yes--on condition he plays for his ballclub. now if his "yes" will result in compton's entry in another ballclub, he'd rather veto when the matter comes to a vote. talk about being trapped in a catch-22 situation.

Agent 008
04-07-2006, 10:16 AM
Thanks for the real score, Kid.

Kawawa naman itong batang 'to. He's more Pinoy than any of the Fil-Am's and even some Pinoys playing in the league.

freak
04-14-2006, 03:57 AM
^^ I agree.. he even learned to speak tagalog.. but I'm not really sure if he would give up his American citizenship like Norman Black / Bobby Parks did.. anyway it would be good for the PBA to see this guy play for the league. Sayang ang galing nya kung hanggang PBL lang siya.

bombet
04-26-2006, 03:12 AM
I DO NOT LIKE FIL-FOREIGNERS, THEY SHOULD STAY WHERE THEY CAME FROM.


Come to think of it, I lost interest in the PBA when these so-called FIL_FOREIGN players started playing. I was an avid PBA fanatic during the 80s and 90s but lost interest when Asi and company arrived.

MonL
04-26-2006, 07:53 AM
I DO NOT LIKE FIL-FOREIGNERS, THEY SHOULD STAY WHERE THEY CAME FROM.


Come to think of it, I lost interest in the PBA when these so-called FIL_FOREIGN players started playing. I was an avid PBA fanatic during the 80s and 90s but lost interest when Asi and company arrived.


Part of the enjoyment that basketball junkies get from watching the pros is seeing guys that have been known to play the game since grade school, high school and break out in college finally play at the highest local level. You are practically clueless at what a fil-for brings to the table until you see his first game on our shores, and he either becomes "Da Bomb" or "a dud". But you wouldn't care about it as much as seeing a homegrown you've known from way back succeed or fail.

keempee
04-26-2006, 02:05 PM
^^ I agree.. he even learned to speak tagalog.. but I'm not really sure if he would give up his American citizenship like Norman Black / Bobby Parks did.. anyway it would be good for the PBA to see this guy play for the league. Sayang ang galing nya kung hanggang PBL lang siya.


as in, filipino citizens na si parks at black? ok talaga silang dalawa, mga role imports on- and off-court.

fil-foreigners do raise the standard of our game. i remember the time when we thought the world of patrimonio and we believed locsin was one of the strongest players in the game. biglang reality check nung di makaporma si patrimonio kay menk who was taller, stronger, and had more range than him. and biglang ang liit pala ni locsin nung tumabi kay ali peek. but now, we see the likes of enrico and raymundo starting to assert themselves, even against these fil-foreigners.

different story with the fakes coz they're violating rules, like segovia, rob parker, even pennisi and taulava. kahit anong anggulo, di ko makita pagkapinoy nung taong yon. dinala dala pa nanay dito, eh mukhang samoan talaga.

i will make an exception with compton, coz the guy has proven he's not a simple basketball mercenary. he has taken the time to learn our language and culture.

having said all that, tama din yung nagsabi na interest in the pba slowly waned when the fil-foreign players came in. pero im not really sure if yun ang direct reason. that was also the time kasi na jawo kinda retired and ginebra languished at the bottom. pero pansinin nyo, pag malakas ang ginebra, napupuno pa din ang araneta and mataas pa din ang ratings. lalo na pag kalaban red bull, which is considered as its rival.

LION
05-08-2006, 02:03 PM
One of the reasons why I think that as much as possible we should not get Fil-foreigners - Alex Crisano.

But then again, I do know that we also have our own rotten eggs.

I just hope that the PBA teams will also give premium to Fil-foreigners who can be role models and who will be appreciative enough of the breaks that they will get here.

Kid Cubao
05-08-2006, 03:36 PM
interest in the PBA started to waned after china walloped us by almost 80 points in the 1990 asian games basketball finals. this was the team coached by sonny jaworski.

you have to understand that years ago, there was this general thinking that we have not been sending our best basketball players in international tournaments because they're in the PBA, and that pinoy pros are actually the best in asia. then the IOC relaxed and eventually scrapped their stringent policies on "amateur" competition to usher in the age of open competition. so at long last our pros had the opportunity to test their mettle against the likes of china, korea (north and south), japan, the arab emirates, and the fomer soviet republics. we did ok, i think, until we ran into the juggernaut called the chinese national team.

i recall samboy lim being quoted as saying, "grabe, sa layup drills pa lang nila, talo na kami." he was referring to the spectacular high-flying dunking show put out by the mainlanders reportedly to psych out their opponents. in 1990, china beat us by close to 60 points in the elimination round, and topped that point spread in the finals. after the games, the myth that PBA basketball is the best in asia was shattered, and people slowly turned away in droves as we continually failed to advance to the gold medal rounds in future asian games competitions. it also didn't help that michael jordan, the chicago bulls, and the NBA reached new heights of popularity among pinoys. compared to NBA action, PBA action looked earth-bound.

hence i understand PBA commissioner noli eala's total and unqualified support to the cause of national head coach chot reyes. if chot reyes brings the philippines back in the international basketball map with players drawn from pro teams, that will most certainly translate into renewed interest to the PBA as well. then we can proudly say again that the best basketball in asia is found in the PBA. sana nga...

pio_valenz
05-08-2006, 06:42 PM
KC,

Some notes on your post:

Re: China's winning margin, yes they did beat us twice in the '90 Asiad. But only the first one, in the quarterfinals, had a 60+plus winning margin (125-60). In the gold medal match, we made the score much more respectable, losing by 90-76.

While attendance did drop dramatically in the PBA after the Chinese exposed us and the myth of invincibility was shattered, the PBA did rebound nicely from 1991 to 1996. The ratings decline, methinks, was a combination of many things, the Fil-Am situation included.

First off, the MBA emerged and began pirating a lot of players. Not only that, the MBA suddenly had a lot of "Fil-Ams", guys like Cid White, Chris Clay, Matthew Mitchell, and Jeff Flowers who were never really proven to ahve genuine blood. The PBA overreacted, and they relaxed their eligibility rules to also accomodate players who would later turn out to be Fil-Shams. That struck the first blow against the PBA's credibility.

Next in 1998, the PBA launched an ambitious plan to reclaim viewers and at the same time legitimize its status as the premier basketball league in the country: presenting your PBA Centennial Team to the '98 Asiad. The PBA gambled heavily on this team, marketing it extensively as THE national team and even sending it on a three-month tour of the US to gain experience playing against collegiate teams.

But this ploy had two drawbacks: in the short term, attendance and ratings once again suffered because many teams were without their star players for much of the season. But the payoff for this, at least what the PBA was banking on, was a better-prepared basketball team that could seriously challenge for the gold medal. Alas, we were bamboozled by Korea and China, and we finished with just a bronze. Of course, attendance took another beating.

Next, there came the rise of the UAAP. For better or for worse, Studio 23 has done an incredible marketing job and has captured that rich market segment that was the PBA's property for so long: the middle-class students and yuppies. The PBA just couldn't keep in step with the UAAP, and its marketing strategies, until recently, were just off. Just look at PLDT's franchise in the PBA: it carries the Talk N Text brand, not Addict or even Smart Pre-paid. That tells you something about the PBA's current demographics. if you'll notice, the PBA has started to pormote former UAAP stars as soon as they turn pro, obviously hoping that these players' fan base will be carried over to the PBA. They need to have a younger market. Also, instead of competing head on, the PBA now has its off-season during the UAAP's months - from July to October. It's an acknowledgement that the UAAP is now king of the ratings.

Finally, and this is something that marketing can address only up to a certain level, you just don't see any intense rivalry out there. There are no two teams who hate each other intensely, the way Crispa hated Toyota and Ginebra hated Tanduay. There's no marquee match up the viewing public looks forward to. At least the UAAP has that, although not this year. There are also no historical talents out there. Even thought the early to mid 90s had no intense rivalry, at least we were in the presence of basketball immortals like Samboy Lim, Allan Caidic, Alvin Patrimonio, Benjie Paras, and Hector Calma, players who were just a joy to watch and whom almost everyone would pay to see them play live.

keempee
05-09-2006, 12:11 AM
^

the pba also identified, rightly or wrongly, the rise of cable tv viewership as a factor in the ratings decline. while we had FEN tv courtesy of the military bases in the 80s, it was during the 90s that cable became common. nba games became regular viewing, and there was an overload of basketball.

again, methinks that this above reason is highly-debateable. the pba itself also charted and noted the direct proportionality of the rise and decline in ratings with the performance of the ginebra teams.

good points on the rise of the uaap, the short-lived mba, the debacle of the national teams, and the absence of true rivalries as reasons for the decline in passion of fans. fil-sham players didnt help. but legitimate fil-ams may be able to help our standards in the long run. let's not generalize sweepingly and dismiss all of them just because of crisano.

sometimes, i wonder if we can ever beat china again. korea proved however that it can be done. to think that had olsen converted those two free throws, we would have won that semis game against them.

tambay_sa_recto
05-09-2006, 04:34 AM
The solution is easy . . . deport undesirable alien Graham Chua Lim and all his Chinese cohorts and make sure they stay away and leave the management of Philippine basketball to real Filipinos!* *>:(




I DO NOT LIKE FIL-FOREIGNERS, THEY SHOULD STAY WHERE THEY CAME FROM.


Mabuhay ka AnthonyServinio!* Karamihan nga ng mga suliranin natin dito sa ating bansa ay dulot ng mga dayuhan o ang mga may halong dugong banyaga.* Dapat ang nagpapatakbo talaga ng Pilipinas ay ang mga katulad mo na sa litrato at pangalan pa lang ay Pilipinong-Pilipinong tunay.* Kulang na kulang talaga sa atin ang may mga napakasimpleng solusyon sa mga masasalimuot na usapin.* Nawa'y maglipana ang kampon mo na parang kabute sa tag-ulan.

LION
05-09-2006, 08:11 AM
"Nawa'y maglipana ang kampon mo na parang kabute sa tag-ulan."
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Tambay, ok yun a. Di ko alam kung pano mag react si Anthony pag nabasa niya yan hehe. Baka isipin niya mukha siyang kabute hehe.

pio_valenz
05-09-2006, 07:20 PM
^

the pba also identified, rightly or wrongly, the rise of cable tv viewership as a factor in the ratings decline. while we had FEN tv courtesy of the military bases in the 80s, it was during the 90s that cable became common. nba games became regular viewing, and there was an overload of basketball.

again, methinks that this above reason is highly-debateable. the pba itself also charted and noted the direct proportionality of the rise and decline in ratings with the performance of the ginebra teams.

good points on the rise of the uaap, the short-lived mba, the debacle of the national teams, and the absence of true rivalries as reasons for the decline in passion of fans. fil-sham players didnt help.* but legitimate fil-ams may be able to help our standards in the long run. let's not generalize sweepingly and dismiss all of them just because of crisano.

sometimes, i wonder if we can ever beat china again. korea proved however that it can be done. to think that had olsen converted those two free throws, we would have won that semis game against them.


The most recent market research also showed that the PBA market is "old", meaning the fans they ahve today were the exact same fans who first tuned in 15, 20 years ago sa teenagers and young adults. The PBA has simply been unable to attract new viewers. But their pinning the blame on the rise of cable may ahve had an effect, but I don't think it was that big, for why is the UAAP such a big hit?

Interesting that you brought up Olsen's free throws in '02. You know, if we had beaten Korea and finished with a silver, I really think it would have helped the PBA get back on its feet. After that game, a lot of my friends who no longer followed the PBA religiously were texting me about how depressed they were over those missed free throws. Nothing like a basketball game to unite us Pinoys.

Sam Miguel
05-10-2006, 06:18 PM
On the matter of Fil-Foreign talents, I would like to reiterate a stand I often take: Bring 'em all on! The more talent we have the better it'll be for everybody. Look at the NBA now. Its MVP the past two seasons is a Canadian. They have an immensely talented German leading a 60-win team in the second round of the playoffs. An Argentinian and a Frenchman are stars on their defending champion. Why the heck are people so afraid to take on these foreign bloods here? If anything it sure has made basketball a bigger joy to watch. Homegrown boys like Enrico Villanueva aren't doing so bad even against the likes of Asi Taulava and Eric Menk. Bring 'em all on!

chocoks77
05-10-2006, 09:52 PM
I do believe that the problem here does not lie with the Fil-am players. It is in the PBA. They are afraid to add more teams to their fold. Let us try to imagine having 12 teams in the PBA, the mighty homegrown complainants would still have a job lest it be taken away by homegrown players better than them and teams that do not need their services anymore.

Another problem of some of our homegrown players is that when they become millionaires, they no longer give their hearts out in playing hoops. An example of this is Marlou Aquino. I go to a gym where the Sta. Lucia basketball team workout, all he does is to drink taho and lounge. Meanwhile, over at a gym in Pasig, Erik Menk works his butt off to be as strong as he can be.

naguguluhan ako sa sarili kong utak...heheheh

Paul of Bataan
05-11-2006, 10:00 AM
tingin ko hindi pa napapanahon na magdagdag ng bagong teams sa PBA. syempre iba ito dun sa binabalak ng welcoat na parang pumalit lang sa naiwang pwesto ng shell. bumalik lang sa dating bilang ng team sa liga.

pero sang-ayon ako dun sa obserbasyon mo tungkol sa asal ng mga biglang-yamang manlalarong pinoy. marlou aquino is the poster boy for the lazy, over-indulged PBA pro na wala nang inatupag kundi ang swedo nya. his widely-publicized tiff with 2002 nation team coach jong uichico over allowances reflected his selfishness more than anything else. jun limpot is another example of a contented cow who would take a game off for the flimsiest of reasons. in contrast, the likes of jimmy alapag, ai peek, asi taulava, and of course eric menk are paragons of professionalism that pinoy ballers should all look up to.

paralusi
05-11-2006, 04:57 PM
fil-am mark caguioa was fined some 80K by the pba for practically dismissing philippine basketball fans as a waste of his time.

Agent 008
05-12-2006, 10:50 AM
Hi Paralusi,

Can you elaborate on this fine of Caguioa and about his "waste of time" comment. I would like to feed my dislike for these types of undesireables even more. Just to clarify...I also recognize that there are fil-foreign role models playing here so I am not really biased against all of them.

paralusi
05-12-2006, 11:19 AM
mr. caguioa did not actually say those words. he did not need to.

anyway, he will reportedly be fined:

P30,000 for his absence in the 6 allstar side activities
P20,000 was to cover his assorted expenses for the trip
P20,000 for skipping the main game
P10,000 for missing the obstacle challenge & 3point shootout

80K, all in all, basically for dismissing the all-star festivities outright.

Paul of Bataan
05-12-2006, 11:50 AM
isa pang malaking atraso ni caguioa yung pagbale-wala nya sa national training pool ni chot reyes. ang pangunahing patron ng ating pambansang koponan ay walang iba kundi si boss danding cojuangco, na kapatid ng ginebra team manager na si henry cojuangco. tingin ko bilang na rin ang araw ni caguioa sa team. sana i-trade sya sa air21 para mamatay ang kanyang career :D

Agent 008
05-12-2006, 01:20 PM
Dear Paralusi and Paul,

Thank you sa clarifications and insights. Let's count the days together kung hanggang kelan na lang dito yang mga ganyang klaseng player.